Author Topic: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft  (Read 62036 times)

Moonwalker

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Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2010, 08:23:19 PM »
Exploration also doesn't come from NASA and Roscosmos anymore. For NASA exploration ended with Apollo and for Roscomos it ended with the N1 Moon program. The Shuttle actually is nothing more than a transporter, although the most advanced one, capable to put things together (and being reusable). Soyuz also just is a transporter and Dragon will be just that as well. Those things don't explore, they just transport men and equipment into earth orbit for decades.

Building space flight and exploration stuff isn't something that is bound to big agencies. It's build by companies (NASA actually doesn't build anything). And I personally don't care if there is a big blue NASA logo on it or a different one :)
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 08:25:51 PM by Moonwalker »

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Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2010, 09:37:07 PM »
Wrong Moonwalker! The fact that NASA outsources is irrelevant to the argument. Big explorations are done and financed by governments. NASA is a gov, NATIONAL agency, enjoying a huge budget just for Space Exploration and R&D related to Aeronautics and Space. NASA has been created with the mandate to manage the resources to promote Space-related activities - especially exploration - on a national level - just as Roscosmos and ESA. Don't forget that the "A" in NASA's acronym stands fir "Administration", not for "Manufacturing".

Comparing these national agencies with private companies like SpaceX is completely irrelevant. They have different goals, budgets, purposes and mandates.

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Moonwalker

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Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2010, 12:26:08 AM »
Eisenhower first and foremost created NASA to counteract the Sowjet "threat". It was a product of the cold war in the first place (just like the others). Today it is a big job machine. And it is a collection of institutes and facilities which, under the term of "NASA", do science.

NASA is not a private company of course. But SpaceX has become important already at its current state. It wasn't NASA who got the biggest contract in space flight history to carry a satellite system into low earth orbit. And NASA might have to rely on SpaceX in future for carry men into orbit. Think about it ;)

Elon Musk dreams about more than just launching Dragon to the ISS (Mars). And by now he should be taken seriously, especially if SpaceX potentially gets more money and even assignments from Congress/The White House in future. Most importantly: why building Ares I for countless billions of USD's if somebody like SpaceX manages to carry crews to LEO way more cost efficient? That's exactly why Constellation has been scrapped.

Yes, governments do support exploration. But governments also do realize when somebody else can do it quicker and more cost efficient than a big bloated bureaucracy.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2010, 12:28:33 AM by Moonwalker »

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Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2010, 01:59:59 AM »
private companies does not and never will have the funding for non commercial missions. filghts to mars would not be commercial in the next 50 years. they are purely space exploration.. so does un-manned probes.

there is no need for NASA to do all the ISS resupply missions with it's own budget if they can pay someone less money to the the same thing. hence FalconX.

But no private company will send a probe to Pluto, will not develop new flight systems (FBW), will not work on new airfoils (X29), push the envelope on thrust vectoring (X31), go and explore hyper-sonic limit (X47) or explore our solar system. these all must be done by a government agency. and of the USA want to maintain it's technological edge. it must be the one putting in the money. If you pay a commercial company to run a project like this it will gain an un-even advantage over rival companies. For example. if Rockwell were given the contract to develop and explore thrust vectoring instead of just building the X31 we might have seen a whole different F22 (if at all).

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Moonwalker

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Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2010, 03:05:15 AM »
You probably mean SpaceX. Not FalconX ;)

Yes, NASA as well as companies, have developed some great stuff. But that something happened in the past in certain ways, does not mean that it will always continue to happen the same ways in the future. If you would have told people, back in the 1930s, that some day a (European) company will build an aircraft that can carry 800 people over more than 10,000 kilometers of distance, almost nobody would have believed this. Same for Falcon9 and SpaceX. A small company that is going to launch rockets into space frequently. The future, i.e. commercialization of space, will look different than what people were used to in the past 50 years. Yes, NASA does not need to carry equipment and men to the ISS. And if SpaceX might build Falcon9 heavy in future, NASA also does not need to carry something bigger into space like the Orion spacecraft, since SpaceX might be able to do so more cost efficient.

Commercilisation of space does not mean to close NASA and stop exploration. It means a different distribution of money, more innovation and space tourism. The monopoly situation of NASA has prevented this in the past. Constellation just is one another example.

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Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2010, 01:19:45 PM »
Eisenhower first and foremost created NASA to counteract the Sowjet "threat". It was a product of the cold war in the first place (just like the others). Today it is a big job machine. And it is a collection of institutes and facilities which, under the term of "NASA", do science.

NASA is not a private company of course. But SpaceX has become important already at its current state. It wasn't NASA who got the biggest contract in space flight history to carry a satellite system into low earth orbit. And NASA might have to rely on SpaceX in future for carry men into orbit. Think about it ;)

Elon Musk dreams about more than just launching Dragon to the ISS (Mars). And by now he should be taken seriously, especially if SpaceX potentially gets more money and even assignments from Congress/The White House in future. Most importantly: why building Ares I for countless billions of USD's if somebody like SpaceX manages to carry crews to LEO way more cost efficient? That's exactly why Constellation has been scrapped.

Yes, governments do support exploration. But governments also do realize when somebody else can do it quicker and more cost efficient than a big bloated bureaucracy.

Yes, NASA may partially rely on SpaceX in the future just as it's been relying on Boeing and thousands other contractors, so whats so new about that?

And why does it matter if NASA was created as a result of competition from the Russians? Almost every major exploration - definitely those mandated by governments - was a result of some form of competition - political, scientific, or both. That doesn't change the mandate and purpose of NASA, which is Space Exploration, Administration and related R&D.

As for the last paragraph, you're not explaining how and why private companies will be able to independently perform cutting edge manned space exploration, let's say for the sake of the argument, to Mars, within our lifetimes.

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Moonwalker

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Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2010, 08:10:24 AM »
Yes, NASA may partially rely on SpaceX in the future just as it's been relying on Boeing and thousands other contractors, so whats so new about that?

You actually know what's so new about it I think ;) SpaceX by far isn't something like Boeing, Lockheed Martin etc. who work for the government anyway (designing and building war machinery in the first hand). NASA will have to rely on something that is "not invented here" - Falcon9 + Dragon. This is somehow historic. All earlier programs depended on hardware which was developed hugely under the pencil of NASA engineers and scientists. But not so Falcon9 and Dragon. It's not designed by NASA and not build by many huge companies but by a small private company which intenions is, and already became alive, to push commercial space flight forward. SpaceX even operates its own mission control. Not so Boeing, nor Lockheed Martin or others. We have a completely new situation here. We have two different bodies which perform space flight - a huge governmental body and a small company. I.e. SpaceX is not just a subcontractor like Boeing or the others.

And why does it matter if NASA was created as a result of competition from the Russians? Almost every major exploration - definitely those mandated by governments - was a result of some form of competition - political, scientific, or both. That doesn't change the mandate and purpose of NASA, which is Space Exploration, Administration and related R&D.

Yes, these days the true mandate of NASA is R&D luckily, and NASA does it in a way and scale like no other space agency. No doubt. But back in the late 1950's and early 1960's R&D was just a kind of smoke screen, just like it was the case in Russia as well of course. The first and foremost intention was arms race/saber-rattling but nothing more. That is what I wanted to say. Wernher von Braun did invent and revolutionize rocket technology, but he sadly did so as a war criminal. Also something people should never forget (or some even don't know). There is a Pomp and Circumstance, but also shadows. And if NASA wouldn't be that much important politically (it keeps a lot of jobs and important votes), it would not exist anymore in the way it exists.

The thing is that in fact something like NASA is not mandatory overall to explore space. It is just one way how it can be done and how it was done in the past. In in this way it's done in some kind of a monopoly, even preventing innovation and something like a market. But NASA also could be handled differently and much more efficiently. Having talked about it to a lot of space flight enthusiasts and even people inside the business, this is what I hear all the time for almost 10 years. And those people were right. They even were right about Constellation and Ares from the beginning.

When Apollo was being cut by Nixon (another reason why space flight should not overall depend on 4 year periods) a lot of people left NASA disappointedly and went into private businesses (both aviation and space flight subcontractors). From these days on a lot of former NASA people and astronauts talk about commercial space flight, with good reasons. Because commercial space flight industries would enable much more sustainable stuff than a big bloated agency, which always depends on clueless minds who change office and seats every few years. Space flight needs to be available to a much wider range of people and companies. Just like it happened to aviation. Do we always want to sit in front of our PC's and watch NASA launching tax money into space? I rather would take a seat as well ;D

Well, and I wouldn't say that no company would fly to Mars within our lifetime. I expect to live for at least another 60 years. And when one looks back 60 years, one can expect amazing things to happen within the remaining lifetime, well depending on ones age of course ;)

Something like SpaceX was unthinkable in the 1960's. Sure, they get money from the gov. as well. But they need less to do almost the same as NASA (launching cargo and men into space soon), and they don't do it with design and logistical help basically from NASA. They are able to contribute to space exploration in future, by less tax money, and even by making money. This is "why" private companies will be able to perform cutting edge manned space exploration.

The current situation in Washington and inside NASA and SpaceX, is a perfect real life example/proof of how things can be done in a different way without spending 50 billion tax dollars for something like Ares that carries 50% less than the Shuttle by being as twice as expensive operational (and this just to reach LEO i.e. the ISS).
« Last Edit: November 13, 2010, 08:20:34 AM by Moonwalker »

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Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2010, 12:53:44 PM »
It doesn't matter how new SpaceX is: the argument was that NASA doesn't manufacture rockets and Boeing is only obe example.

And I agree that sometimes in the future commercial aircraft will eventually fly to Mars, but, like LEO, that will happen only AFTER NASA and other governmental Space Agencies will open the gate, EXPLORE first, and make it "routine". Only AFTER the big boys spend some time doing that, will the commercial companies have the balls, resources and maybe commercial interest to reach for Mars.

But before that, I haven't seen any commercial company explore the Moon, and the Moon is far easier to reach than Mars.

So my argument stands no matter how you turn it: commercial companies are for profit, not for cutting edge Space Exploration with uncertain results, uncertain future and uncertain budget and even more uncertain ROI.

Commercial companies will always follow, not lead, space flights to new frontiers.

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Moonwalker

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Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2010, 12:40:03 AM »
The gate already is open for many years. It's not only "big boys" anymore who can create the technology to fly into space. SpaceX is "small boys" compared to NASA (just like Scaled Composits), but the results are almost the same by less money. That's where space flight is heading to.

There is a saying which still is valid: a state is not a good businessman. And NASA is one very good example. The big days and big boys aren't anymore. As amazing as it was, but something like Apollo/Constellation or STS won't ever get any serious funding again, if there won't be another Cold War. Things will be managed differently in future, because justifiably politicians are not willing anymore to spend billions of dollars to create a few footsteps on the Moon again just for a big TV show.

Nothing is certain, especially not the future. And governmental programs by far are not more certain than commercial programs/intentions. The only thing which made governmental space flight look something like "certain" in the past (in fact it never was certain), just was the Cold War but nothing more.

Arianespace by the way is a good example how to create and operate cutting edge technology with a relatively small number of employees and making a lot of profit (more than 1 B. € a year). SpaceX will become another example and even perform manned launches. Politicians already have realized that NASA needs to be restructured and that programs have to be coordinated differently to make them more innovative and less expensive. Constellation was not canceled out of no reason and I'm sure NASA won't ever be able to do something like this again on its own. Commercial space flight is needed if we want to see big things happen again...
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 12:41:58 AM by Moonwalker »

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Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2010, 12:56:14 AM »
Moonwalker, nice speech but it is only speculation, wishful thinking and no explanation. Space Exploration will always be done by governments, while thousands of private companies will support it.

When exploration is done and it becomes routine, private companies will deal with transportation and eventually, resources exploitation, expansion etc. but never before governments open up the door. And as frontiers are more ambitious, the costs, risks and other resources needed for exploring those frontiers will farther the possibility from the hands of companies and into the responsibility of governments, nations and international cooperation.

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Moonwalker

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Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2010, 02:53:53 AM »
Yes, governments will always fund exploration. But what I say is that they'll do so in a different way in future. NASA will participate logistically and support the manned part of a certain exploration proposal for sure. But the technology might not come from the pencil and hangars of NASA anymore, like it was the case in earlier days.

Just imagine Falcon9 heavy and a different, even bigger version of Dragon, capable to leave earth orbit. Of course it's still speculation, but one should be careful these days to downplay the role of something like SpaceX. They already get money from the gov. because of good reasons (which is why they also got the biggest commercial contract in space flight history).

http://www.commercialspaceflight.org/

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Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2010, 03:23:57 AM »
I don't care about the size of Falcon, either. It's irrelevant, because if it will ever be used for exploration, it will be as part of a gov-funded program, not of a commercial space exploration program, going where NASA has never gone before.

SpaceX will most probably sell stuff to NASA (or maybe ESA, etc) and make money from the sale and service, exactly like thousands of other contractors do today. NASA will not be replaced by SpaceX (or similar) or become irrelevant, as you tried to claim before.

SpaceX will also do transportation, well after the Exploration deemed it safe.

But not more, and definitely, not within 60 years. Sorry ;)

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Moonwalker

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Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2010, 03:55:51 AM »
Remember that in the 1930's the New York Times titled that no rocket will ever leave the earth's atmosphere. 60 years later: supersonic passenger flight, space flight, satellite television etc.

What might happen within the next 60 years is not foreseeable at all. And never use the word "definitely" ;) There is no reason why a company should not be able to fly to Mars within the next 60 years "definitely". Only because the US government does so (unmanned), does not at all mean that nobody else can do so as well in future. Right now, nobody can do so. And it is by far not sure at all that NASA or another governmental agency will be the first to leave the earths orbit once again...

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Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2010, 11:03:08 AM »
By the way, this is an interesting interview which also shows why and how commercial space flight can be innovative and be able to perform exploration indeed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3RlCVtQ6mA

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Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2010, 12:26:21 PM »
Irrelevant to the subject again, Moonwalker. We are talking about why space exploration cannot be commercial, but only governmental/national endeavor, not when it will happen.

I claim it won't, you claim it will, and even within 60 years. Let's wait and see if the first human landing on Mars will be a commercial endeavor led by a company, or a national endeavor, led by a gov agency, riding a platform commissioned by a gov agency.

My claim is NASA is needed and is here to stay, you claim that there is no need for NASA anymore and that SpaceX or similar, make NASA obsolete.

Let's stay with visible reality and leave Avatar to the box office.

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