Author Topic: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft  (Read 61739 times)

Moonwalker

  • Shuttle Pilot
  • *****
  • Posts: 936
Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2010, 07:36:48 PM »
SpaceX received government money and resources through NASA as part of the outsourcing program that's always been there ever since Apollo.

Nope. SpaceX did not get resources from NASA yet and is not the usual part of NASA's outsourcing program.

SpaceX was founded in 2002 by Elon Musk, before there was any talk of the COTS program, and even before STS-107 which introduced the foreseeable end of the Shuttle program. The goal of Elon Musk was to lower the costs for space launches by doing it without unnecessary bureaucracy. He succeeded. And very important in this context: SpaceX is a small company (especially founded for efficient space flight systems) with ~1000 employees, vs. 15000 employees for the ATK Launch Systems Group and 160000 employees for Boeing for example. There are huge differences.

Beside its own launch complex and buildings in Hawthorne California, SpaceX got SLC-40 at the Cape from the Air Force for opearting Falcon 9 from the Cape. But they demolished the old tower and buildings due to build and use their own hardware and buildings. Also, Falcon and Dragon are independent proprietary concepts and developments by SpaceX, tested by SpaceX (by using their own facilities and hardware) and operated by SpaceX, and not by NASA. The development costs for both, Falcon 9 and Dragon, were less than 300 million dollars by the way (vs. 9 billion USD for an unfinsihed, second-stage-less NASA rocket - Ares 1). SpaceX gets money from NASA for ISS support missions. No more, no less. NASA did not design and does not operate SpaceX's hardware like they did with the Space Shuttle, Apollo hardware etc. That's something totally different. It's a complete outsourcing this time and for now. SpaceX designed, built and now operates its hardware for NASA but also for other commercial usage. Remember that SpaceX got the biggest commercial contract in space flight history for carrying the Iridium satellites into orbit (nearly 500 million USD).

SpaceX is a vivid example of how to do space flight by less costs due to unnecessary bureaucracy and big expensive structures. NASA wouldn't ever perform 12 ISS supply missions to the ISS on their own by such low costs SpaceX can offer. One can get about 17 Falcon 9 launches for the costs of one Shuttle launch, whilst one Ares 1 launch would have been more expensive than one Shuttle launch by carrying 50% less payload.

As for knowledge: NASA succeeded based on the knowledge of Wernher von Braun and his team as well as other American engineers and scientists back then in the late 1950's and 1960's. Just like Russia succeeded even before the USA because of German and Russian engineers and scientists back then. These days knowledge is widely available indeed. But rocket science is not just there because NASA is just there. Without NASA, Russia would be the leading space country. But the future of space flight is going to look different than in the past anyway. It was for sure that one day space flight is being more and more commercialized. And it's still just the very beginning.

A good example for bureaucracy also is the chinese space program by the way. They launch rockets for 50 years and satellites into orbit for 40 years now. They intend to do manned space flight for more than 40 years and now test flying their system for more than 10 years. SpaceX did reach orbit within only 6 years after foundation (without money and resources from NASA as Falcon 1 is not part of the COTS program), and returning a capsule from space only 8 years after foundation.

Specifically in the case of manned space missions, safety and caution are paramount and cutting corners by non-selectively dismissing bureaucracy can be regarded as reckelessness.

The problem is that increasing bureaucracy does not increase safety endlessly. Just like NASA people and observers of that "business" already say, NASA's bureaucracy i.e. requirements exceeds the optimal point of safety. But that's not all. There are also structural issues. NASA wastes a lot of money for their manned program which actually is assigned for science and research. It's basically mismanagement and wrong political decisions, and it's not because I say so but because those issues are well known, and which have caused the end of Constellation just as one example.

Losing Astronaut lives is just not worth the satisfaction of recklessly bashing NASA!

Space Flight can be as safe as commercial aviation, and even a little safer, without too much bureaucracy involved. Guess why things like vaccination, but also flight security etc. has been already outsourced, at least in Germany (the densely used German airspace qualifies as one of the safest). A state never is a good businessman.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 07:45:37 PM by Moonwalker »

christra

  • Guest
Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #46 on: December 21, 2010, 08:34:57 PM »
Doesn't it dawn on you guys that you won't get together?  ;D

ping... pong... ping... pong...

Happy holidays!

Moonwalker

  • Shuttle Pilot
  • *****
  • Posts: 936
Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #47 on: December 21, 2010, 09:35:22 PM »
Doesn't it dawn on you guys that you won't get together?  ;D

ping... pong... ping... pong...

Happy holidays!

Yes, well, at least not on SpaceX / NASA ;D Whilst it's not SpaceX but NASA who is in deep s...t these days.

Happy holidays!

Admin

  • Commander
  • Shuttle Pilot
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,729
  • Sic Itur Ad Astra
    • Space Shuttle Mission 2007 (tm)
Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #48 on: December 21, 2010, 11:26:59 PM »
Hmm, I wonder what sources you have Moonwwalker, SpaceX received A LOT of gov grants for this purpose. Don't base your entire theory on false information.

And with all due respect, I'll ignore the rants about "bureaucracy" and the glorification of cutting corners leading to anarchy.

Fortunately for everybody SpaceX will have to go through all the trials and tribulations necessary for making Dragon as safe as possible for human flight. And if some inefficiant, no-good bureaucrats will have a free meal in the process, that's a small price I gladly pay just to see those astronauts back safely home.

Regardless, after the Columbia and Challenger disasters which were largely a result of ignoring said bureaucracy, nobody in his right mind will even suggest taking a faster and more reckless route.

/Admin
- The Space Shuttle Mission 2007(tm)Team -

Admin

  • Commander
  • Shuttle Pilot
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,729
  • Sic Itur Ad Astra
    • Space Shuttle Mission 2007 (tm)
Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #49 on: December 21, 2010, 11:32:30 PM »
Doesn't it dawn on you guys that you won't get together?  ;D

ping... pong... ping... pong...

Happy holidays!

Yes, we should have a "users meeting" of sorts as we discussed in the past, but considering the current economy, I don't see many taking transatlantic flights and booking hotels to meet over a simulator for PC.

Even the famous AVSIM conference has dwindled due to these sad facts.

It's also becoming harder and harder to convince the "better half" of the "vital need" for such a travel "only" for a hobby.

Maybe when the EUR and US$ return to their better selves, this might again become a possibility.

/Admin
- The Space Shuttle Mission 2007(tm)Team -

Pocci

  • Shuttle Pilot
  • *****
  • Posts: 616
Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #50 on: December 21, 2010, 11:36:38 PM »
We could meet on teamspeak. No need for planes and hotels.

/Armin
Coordinator of 1st multiplayer Launch on 2009-05-30

Admin

  • Commander
  • Shuttle Pilot
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,729
  • Sic Itur Ad Astra
    • Space Shuttle Mission 2007 (tm)
Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #51 on: December 21, 2010, 11:51:45 PM »
We could meet on teamspeak. No need for planes and hotels.

/Armin

Yes, but there is nothing like having dinner, shaking hands and talking face to face.

/Admin
- The Space Shuttle Mission 2007(tm)Team -

Moonwalker

  • Shuttle Pilot
  • *****
  • Posts: 936
Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #52 on: December 22, 2010, 12:00:50 AM »
Well, what bureaucracy and the program structure of NASA causes is clearly visible. They won't be back in space manned any time soon sadly. Especially not the way they did in the past, by passing big monster programs through in Washington, based on wrong hopes and assessments.

No matter if NASA is a customer of SpaceX, one simply can't disagree that SpaceX works more efficient than any space flight agency right now if it's about launching new hardware into orbit and especially returning a capsule home (remember that SpaceX does not only design and build but also completey operate their hardware). What NASA delivers at the moment is requirements and money to buy the supply missions. Without the existence of SpaceX, it would be very silent in the sky above the Cape for many years once the Shuttle is grounded. Combined with the enthusiasm which SpaceX causes to many people, SpaceX get's criticised of course, especially because it paints the picture of NASA even more dark. But it's a NASA issue. Not a SpaceX issue.

NASA has to change. Otherwise it will become what former Shuttle Flight Director Wayne Hale tends to call it: a train wreck. One who looks at NASA can't say that everything is fine as it is and it's just bad politics if at all. It's more than just that.

Faster, more efficient and still safe does not mean anarchy by the way. Just like the way NASA was doing with Constellation also didn't mean safety. The safety concerns and issues regarding Ares 1 were huge all along and not at all less than it was the case for the Shuttle (beside causing Orion to shrink in capacity although you first design the spacecraft and then chose/design a proper launch vehicle). For now, neither Falcon 9 and Dragon, nor Ares 1 and Orion is safer or less safe than the other one. At least Dragon did fly and return as planned with only ~10 km offset. By proper requirements, Falcon 9 can be as safe as Soyuz for example whilst the operation will be much more efficient than Ares 1 supplying the ISS. There are solid reasons why NASA is approaching a big gap and chosed SpaceX to supply the ISS. And those reasons are not telling that NASA is in a good shape.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 12:05:22 AM by Moonwalker »

Moonwalker

  • Shuttle Pilot
  • *****
  • Posts: 936
Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #53 on: December 22, 2010, 12:09:18 AM »
We could meet on teamspeak. No need for planes and hotels.

/Armin

Yes, but there is nothing like having dinner, shaking hands and talking face to face.

/Admin

Additionally my spoken English is bad I guess  ;D

Admin

  • Commander
  • Shuttle Pilot
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,729
  • Sic Itur Ad Astra
    • Space Shuttle Mission 2007 (tm)
Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #54 on: December 22, 2010, 12:18:32 AM »
No, Moonwalker - this time we are not arguing about SpaceX "efficiency". Don't try to change the subject and escape the fact that you goofed.

Suddenly it's not important that SpaceX has been receiving gov money, eh?

But that was your whole point!

You were hopping up and down gleeing and claiming that SpaceX did everything without gov money! Make up your mind!

So now we have actually been arguing about your claim that NASA is not needed anymore and that companies like SpaceX can do everything alone, only with private money.

Here is one of many open sources discussing SpaceX funding by NASA and Obama Administration (again, THROUGH NASA and under NASA's mandate and supervision).

You will find quite a few claims there that you will certainly like, but don't miss the fact that SpaceX has been and will be funded by gov money through NASA (in excess of 1.6Billion US$ and counting ) so the whole hysteria about SpaceX doing everything with 100% private money proving that NASA can go home,  is completely incorrect and unfounded, because it was founded on an incorrect assumption.

http://www.smartplanet.com/technology/blog/thinking-tech/elon-musk-spacex-are-the-future-of-space-exploration/3224/

Note that the article is from February 2010 - plenty of time for you to find it - if you only care to research before you post.

Anyway, regardless of what you say, NASA is here to stay, SpaceX is also here to stay. NASA will do Space Exploration and SpaceX/Boeing etc. will cover "routine" space transportation and be partially funded by the gov (until it makes commercial sense to become 100% self-funded).

And thankfully - "bureaucracy" is here to stay, at least taking care that private companies natural greediness will not tempt them to cutting corners which will ultimately cost lives.

So now that we all know for a fact that SpaceX has been receiving and will be receiving (a quite a substantial slice of) taxpayers' money for its space transportation program, let's move to other matters.

/Admin

« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 12:40:25 AM by Admin »
- The Space Shuttle Mission 2007(tm)Team -

Pocci

  • Shuttle Pilot
  • *****
  • Posts: 616
Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #55 on: December 22, 2010, 12:21:30 AM »
We could meet on teamspeak. No need for planes and hotels.
Yes, but there is nothing like having dinner, shaking hands and talking face to face.
OK, you are right.
That leads to the interesting question, where on earth does Admin live?
Maybe some of us are near enough.

/Armin
Coordinator of 1st multiplayer Launch on 2009-05-30

Admin

  • Commander
  • Shuttle Pilot
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,729
  • Sic Itur Ad Astra
    • Space Shuttle Mission 2007 (tm)
Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #56 on: December 22, 2010, 12:26:13 AM »
We could meet on teamspeak. No need for planes and hotels.
Yes, but there is nothing like having dinner, shaking hands and talking face to face.
OK, you are right.
That leads to the interesting question, where on earth does Admin live?
Maybe some of us are near enough.

/Armin

"...eternally on orbit..." of course!

But that's irrelevant since before that even happens, we might be running a statistics to find out where most of our customers live and accomodate them first.

/Admin
- The Space Shuttle Mission 2007(tm)Team -

christra

  • Guest
Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #57 on: December 22, 2010, 12:45:33 AM »
That leads to the interesting question, where on earth does Admin live?
Maybe some of us are near enough.
His real name is Santa Claus. Now guess...  ;D :D

Moonwalker

  • Shuttle Pilot
  • *****
  • Posts: 936
Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #58 on: December 22, 2010, 01:40:15 AM »
So now that we all know for a fact that SpaceX has been receiving and will be receiving (a quite a substantial slice of) taxpayers' money for its space transportation program, let's move to other matters.

It's a funny sentence. Because I already wrote that SpaceX has been receiving money from NASA for the ISS support missions just on top of this page ;) I don't believe that you or anybody else seriously expects SpaceX to privately fund a free service for NASA? ;D You just didn't read my posts carefully enough I guess.

What I was saying right from the beginning, is that SpaceX launches rockets into space without having such enormous resources NASA has, and this more efficiently. It's not deniable. Falcon 1 was the first fully privately funded rocket that ever launched into Space and carried a commercial satellite into Orbit (and again only 6 years after the foundation of spaceX). And again also, Falcon 9 and Dragon are independent proprietary concepts and developments by SpaceX, not by NASA. What NASA does is buying the service of SpaceX as already mentioned several times. And that's just what SpaceX was founded for. Offering cost efficient transportation into space. Did you really thought SpaceX would do it for free as a gift to NASA?

For 1.6 billion USD NASA gets 12 support missions to the ISS. And I've already mentioned, also on this page, that NASA wouldn't ever perform 12 ISS supply missions to the ISS on their own by such low costs SpaceX can offer. And did you know that NASA might even buy more missions for a value of up to 3.1 billion USD all in all? ;)

http://www.spacex.com/press.php?page=20081223

But nice that now "you all" know what almost everybody already knew and what I was mentioning before ;D
« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 01:45:27 AM by Moonwalker »

Moonwalker

  • Shuttle Pilot
  • *****
  • Posts: 936
Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #59 on: December 22, 2010, 02:01:14 AM »
PS: not even 10 years ago, almost nobody would have dreamed that NASA would completely buy a non-NASA service for supplying NASA's space station. And this for low costs. What's next? Never say "never" or "impossible" ;)
« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 02:02:54 AM by Moonwalker »