Oh freakin' yeah!

[Admin]

Moonwalker, all you're talking is "transportation". While the early stages of anything can in some cases be called indeed "exploration", after a while, they become "routine" and stop being that.

But putting a man on Mars is exploration. In order to do that, we need to learn ways to live on an extra-terrestrial body, and the Moon is a good candidate.

Going to the Moon and living there for 10-15 years is a step which cannot be avoided on the quest for putting man on Mars.

THAT is exploration!

Nobody claimed that STS is exploration so it's a waste of time arguing about this. It's also a waste of time arguing about the semantics of transportation vs. exploration, although it seems that you're freely swapping the two to match the argument.

For this purpose, here is the definition of exploration as it appears in www.dictionary.net:

"The act of exploring, penetrating, or ranging over for purposes of discovery, especially of geographical discovery; examination; as, the exploration of unknown countries"

So forget SpaceX doing any exploration for the time being.

SpaceX may know how to build LEO platforms, but none of them has been certified for manned LEO yet. That puts it right with Vostok and Gemini, but definitely not with Apollo or with what is necessary for reaching the Moon or Mars.

Oh, and one last thing: manned space exploration does not mean only "building the transportation to get there". It also means training the crew, building and maintaing the right logistics, planning, etc. etc. It means having the right multi-disciplinary staff and the right multi-disciplinary experience  Even if SpaceX knew how to do that (which it doesn't), it definitely doesn't have the resources for that.

So whether you like it or not, NASA is the only body which has the means and potential to do true manned space exploration. Now what it needs is somebody to put it back on its original track and exploration goals, clean of irrelevant politics (become the State Department with its "Muslim world outreach"), irrelevant goals (becoming NOAA with its "hurricane research" program), and of irrelevant politicians (too many to name here).

/Admin

[Moonwalker]

NASA is the only body which has the means and potential to do true manned space exploration.

Theoretically NASA can do almost everything if you just put enough money into it. But practically NASA suffers from structural issues and bad management. Below 100 billion USD NASA wouldn't even be able to perform a sustainable Moon program (it just includes a few footprints but no Moon base). And these days nobody wants to pay that money anmore, which is quite understandable. With 50 billion USD they would have build nothing more than a significantly reduced Ares 1 with a significantly reduced Orion on top of it. It did not include any Moon hardware and not any ISS support missions and operating costs. It's just the pure development costs. And this is the problem. Now they're talking about a heavy launcher. But you can mark my words: NASA won't, in it's current state, build and operate any manned heavy launcher, less than ever fly to Moon or Mars.

Yes, NASA is capable to do everything from the technical and logistical point of view. But you won't find any sponsor, not even congress, who puts hundreds of billions into such a bureaucracy to fly to the Moon again to just produce new footprints. Without reforms and/or without international partnership, NASA is grounded. If at all they might be stuck in LEO sometime late 2010's or 2020's. People have to get rid of the old misbelief that exploration can only be done by a big governmental body. If you free up NASA's rescources and make it available and open for industries, things can be done not only quicker but also less expensive. Of course it also requires tax money. But it's a different way of distribution.

Without reforms or without partnership, Europe and Russia will remain in space alone in future. The decision maker in the US, like a lot of people, still suffer from the old illusion that manned space exploration is something only for governments. But times have changed. As we see things happen, NASA won't fly to anywhere within this decade. Not even into LEO...

[Moonwalker]

Well, I forgot to mention that not all decision maker in the US suffer from the illusion that manned space exploration is something only for agencies. Luckily there are wise people in Washington who call for commercial crew support. Let's hope they'll pass it otherwise NASA once again will have lots of bad days in future.

[Admin]

As any organization, especially gov ones, NASA needs to be streamlined and focused. That's what I'm saying too. But this needs to be done in a responsible manner.

As for NASA involving commercial companies in space exploration, that's a hardly new thing. I am not aware of any single major program not relying on commercial outsourcing at a certain degree.

Regarding cooperation with other agencies: NASA's been there too, quite substantially so no news here.

NASA must however LEAD and MANAGE the program on the US side. It cannot be restructured and streamlined into self-destruction and irrelevancy. That's exactly what the current administration has been expecting it to do ever since it came to the White House.

/Admin

[Moonwalker]

As any organization, especially gov ones, NASA needs to be streamlined and focused. That's what I'm saying too. But this needs to be done in a responsible manner.

Absolutely. But this is not going to happen ever since the announcement of Constellation. And it is not going to happen by the latest plans as well. Even less as it would have been the case with Constellation. To quote former NASA administrator Mike Griffin from August 6: "We’re not going anywhere and we’re going to spend a lot of money doing it."

We really should enjoy the last Space Shuttle missions, as it will be the last manned US flights until we all will be much older when we might witness a new reasonable and payable program. I'm so glad we have SSM2007 and hopefully SSM2010 soon It will be the only manned US stuff lifting off within this decade once the Shuttle has been retired, well at least on our screens...

NASA is in a downward spiral. And it is not going to be any better by the current plans.

[Admin]

As any organization, especially gov ones, NASA needs to be streamlined and focused. That's what I'm saying too. But this needs to be done in a responsible manner.

Absolutely. But this is not going to happen ever since the announcement of Constellation. And it is not going to happen by the latest plans as well. Even less as it would have been the case with Constellation. To quote former NASA administrator Mike Griffin from August 6: "We’re not going anywhere and we’re going to spend a lot of money doing it."

Enjoy the last Space Shuttle missions, as it will be the last manned US flights until we all will be much older when we might witness a new reasonable and payable program. I'm so glad we have SSM2007 and hopefully SSM2010 soon It will be the only manned US stuff lifting off within this decade once the Shuttle has been retired, well at least on our screens...

NASA is in a downward spiral. And it is not going to be any better by the current plans.

I don't want to speculate what it is going to happen to NASA. Life is full of surprises and disappointments. We can only somehow "control" the future of SSM

Oh, BTW, STS-135 is a reality <g> so the last Shuttle flight is on June 2011 (if it's not postponed like STS-133and STS-134)

/Admin

[spaceboy7441]

Admin, that has not been passed by the house or the president. Only the senate. It is becoming more likely but not a guarantee yet

For what it's worth, the Senate approved their version of the NASA Reauthorization Act of 2010 last night, which includes approval of STS-135.  This is a good step forward but we still need the House and Obama, the latter of which I fear will be very difficult.

-nathan.moeller on NSF STS-135 thread

[Admin]

Admin, that has not been passed by the house or the president. Only the senate. It is becoming more likely but not a guarantee yet

For what it's worth, the Senate approved their version of the NASA Reauthorization Act of 2010 last night, which includes approval of STS-135.  This is a good step forward but we still need the House and Obama, the latter of which I fear will be very difficult.

-nathan.moeller on NSF STS-135 thread

Did you forget when I "hinted" that Constellation was dead before it went official? Now fast-forward to today

/Admin

[spaceboy7441]

Admin, that has not been passed by the house or the president. Only the senate. It is becoming more likely but not a guarantee yet

For what it's worth, the Senate approved their version of the NASA Reauthorization Act of 2010 last night, which includes approval of STS-135.  This is a good step forward but we still need the House and Obama, the latter of which I fear will be very difficult.

-nathan.moeller on NSF STS-135 thread

Haha yeah but this is something that hasn't happened yet so even an insider couldn't know...
Did you forget when I "hinted" that Constellation was dead before it went official? Now fast-forward to today

/Admin

[Admin]

Admin, that has not been passed by the house or the president. Only the senate. It is becoming more likely but not a guarantee yet

For what it's worth, the Senate approved their version of the NASA Reauthorization Act of 2010 last night, which includes approval of STS-135.  This is a good step forward but we still need the House and Obama, the latter of which I fear will be very difficult.

-nathan.moeller on NSF STS-135 thread

Haha yeah but this is something that hasn't happened yet so even an insider couldn't know...
Did you forget when I "hinted" that Constellation was dead before it went official? Now fast-forward to today

/Admin

There is a difference between "hasn't happened yet" and "hasn't been announced yet"

/Admin

[Richard R]

 

[mborgia]

Okay, now the next step is to get Congress to approve STS-136 through 138 using leftover lightweight ET's to fly minimum payload weight missions to station through 2012, until new super lightweight ET's can start rolling off the production line again by 2013 to support STS-139 and future flights.

I can dream, can't I?

[neosonic2k]

NASASpaceflight is writing an article, a known Houston Flight controller is dancing happily... and NASA Spaceflight had this to say:

"STS-135 becomes "Real Planned Mission to the ISS June 28, 2011" - memos arriving, will write article asap."

[Moonwalker]

It's great to see the Shuttle perform a few more missions. But we shouldn't forget that the Shuttle will be retired definitely, and by extending the Shuttle program, the serious trouble NASA has to cope with won't be fixed at all. As much as I love the Shuttle, I see no reason to dance, sadly. NASA remains to be in deep s**t...

But all my hope now goes to SSM2010

[Andysim212]

Its good news about STS-135 but all good things must end,  I would give my right arm to keep her flying but cannot see that happen.  I will be able to tell my grandkids in 40 or 50 year about the time humans learned to use fire to make rockets and then live in space for months/years at a time.   By then we will have used up most of the oil/gas and we will all be back living in caves all because somewhere along the way we forgot how to imagine what could be.

I dont normaly post links but this song fits very well into this post
" Fire in the Sky"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ryd_p20XEU&feature=player_embedded