Moon return plan 'is dead'

[Moonwalker]

the development issues which generated the over-budget are unquestionable facts, but that's ALWAYS been an issue of Space Exploration or any "extreme" frontier Exploration for that matter.

That's exactly the problem. NASA managers and politicians did not learn from those issues when they introduced the Ares launchers. Even worse when they introduced Ares 1. The design was the problem from the very beginning (putting a manned payload on top of a single solid rocket booster, which was a concept Wernher von Braun already refused steadfastly to do). Issues that was foreseeable. As even Bolden said publicly just a fews days before: "I did not listen". And not only him. Many did not listen. Listen to those (NASA and space industry engineers), who for years said that the issues are going to make Ares 1 unreasonable (safety, time, money). Not for nothing have they anonymously come together and created the DIRECT concept. Not for nothing has the Augustine Commission been requested. And not for nothing has the program been canceled finally. I could easily quote many posts from forums, blogs and news articels, back from 3 years of age, that said back then: Ares 1 won't ever get into LEO. Of course at that time I also thought that they are wrong and NASA is right. Because it's NASA and its managers must know how to do it best. But it was not at all. Those people I laughed at now have my respect, even if it was just rocket science students that obviously knew more than some NASA managers were able to realize. I don't remember any space program that got that much bad press and criticism and so much relief after its cancelation (basically refering to web polls and articles).

Well, NASA may change its path once again due to congressional fights and decisions. Quite unlikely but there is always hope that Constellation might be back "in some sort". But one thing you can bet all your money on: Ares won't come back in any case.

[Admin]

Simking, I challenge you to show me ONE Space Agency which is not over-spending. This is not because people don't learn, but mostly because when confronted with rigid safety and technology choices, time and money suffer.

I bet that commercial enterprises, when they go mainstream Space Exploration and be confronted with safety, technology, time and money and will have to haul humans, will have a tough life, or maybe realize that they are in the wrong business.

To be clear, commercial space is an inevitable and desirable thing, but it will, and should  aim for objectives that have already reached by national and/or international gov agencies. I for one can see many opportunities for commercial LEO but would regard with suspicion any commercial endeavor of building a Moon base, or reach for Mars.

Commercial enterprises are even more susceptible than gov agencies to political, commercial, technological and corporate woes. A good example of what can happen to commercial entities has been given by the US car giants who have been momentarily saved by taxpayers' money.

So no, I don't buy the claim that commercializing Space Exploration will solve over spending while keeping safety, technology and national interests unhurt.

/Admin   

[Moonwalker]

There is a rather solid reason for the cancelation of Constellation and going commercial finally

Governmental funded space flight will never be cheap and available to a broad range of people. The same would be the case and was the case for aviation. Just a few decades ago people claimed that airplane tickets would never be cheaper than train tickets. Today train tickets are up to 3 times more expensive than airplane tickets here in Germany. Everything that went commercial is available for almost everybody today: computers, cell phones, cars, airplane tickets for trips around the world etc.

The point with space flight is that people are disappointed for missing great shows like Apollo and the Shuttle in the future. A lot of people still like to see those money hungry governmental job keeping programs just for the sake to see seomthing big happening and waving their country flags. Now the time of such programs is over and people become disappointed. But commercial space flight only is a question of time, not a question of "if". Now NASA even talks about Falcon 9 assembly inside the VAB at KSC. Because they're going to safe not millions but billions of dollars...

[Admin]

There is a fundamental difference between commercializing "space flight" and commercializing "space exploration". I hope I don't need to go into details

/Admin

[Moonwalker]

There is a fundamental difference between commercializing "space flight" and commercializing "space exploration". I hope I don't need to go into details

/Admin

Yep. But commercializing science is not a problem. A lot of engineering and scientific fields already have been commercialised and made our life and free time rather comfortable

Most people think that riding aboard the Shuttle and being aboard the ISS is real space exploration. But the exploration part is quite minor. Earth and space does only play a very minor role aboard the Shuttle and the ISS. It's mostly materials science, medicine, bilogical stuff, keeping all the systems up and running, and taking a fews pictures of the earth but that's it. We have stoped real manned space exploration by the end of Apollo (sure, also was very expensive). The most significant space exploration i.e. research of the solar system was and is done by telescopes (not only Hubble), probes and by robots on Mars for example. But a human in space does actually not explore space anymore. He/she travels around the earth, experiences weightlessness and does earth-related science for industries. From the scientific point of view, manned space flight at the current stage indeed is a bit questionable based on that tax billions.

Personally I would give a damn on science if I can get to Moon or Mars just to visit it if it would not be too expensive. That's what most people would and will think and do in future. Why do people travel by airplanes around our globe? Not basically because they want to fly and are interested in the engineering stuff and science behind it, but because they want to visit another exciting places (or their relatives and friends). If we compare early seafaring with manned space flight: the planets within our solar system are the continents, and the space inbetween are the oceans. The difference is that's just a little bit bigger And we already have entered what I call the Christopher Columbus age of space flight: elaborate and expensive, but going to become usual for more and more humans in future...

[Admin]

Yes, your opinion is as valid as others', and I am sure that there are quite a lot who strogly disagree with your statement that "riding aboard the Shuttle and being aboard the ISS is [not] real space exploration". I am sure that you do understand perfectly what I mean by the difference between "space flight" and "space exploration". Changing the intended context does not make your position more valid. I still strongly disagree that "space exploration" can be commercialized to the extent governments can, for one, because of the fact that commercial interests are rarely in tune with national or global interests. But this is only one reason. I won't list more because I want to bring this argument to a soft end.

Moonwalker, I suggest we stop arguing about all this at this point. I know what your position is and you know what is mine, and playing with words won't change a thing.

At this stage this discussion is not productive anymore and frankly, it is starting to bore me to death - especially since this argument is more a two-person discussion (which slowly degenerates into an intellectual pissing contest) and it stopped attracting others a long time ago.

I suggest we see what the Congress decides. After all, its decision does not depend on this thread

/Admin

[commenderyoyo]

It doesn't really makes sence... we don't have budget to transport 3-6 men/women to the moon, but we have enough budget to make a whole colony there?  :S

plus we kinda had it coming. It was quite obvious we would abandon the moon(how many times can we go there?) and go for mars (only visited by a probe...).
so what can I say?
God's Speed!!!

[bjbeard]

No Star Trek, no NASA...

Just shoot me.

[simking]

There is a rather solid reason for the cancelation of Constellation and going commercial finally

Governmental funded space flight will never be cheap and available to a broad range of people. The same would be the case and was the case for aviation. Just a few decades ago people claimed that airplane tickets would never be cheaper than train tickets. Today train tickets are up to 3 times more expensive than airplane tickets here in Germany. Everything that went commercial is available for almost everybody today: computers, cell phones, cars, airplane tickets for trips around the world etc.

The point with space flight is that people are disappointed for missing great shows like Apollo and the Shuttle in the future. A lot of people still like to see those money hungry governmental job keeping programs just for the sake to see seomthing big happening and waving their country flags. Now the time of such programs is over and people become disappointed. But commercial space flight only is a question of time, not a question of "if". Now NASA even talks about Falcon 9 assembly inside the VAB at KSC. Because they're going to safe not millions but billions of dollars...

I just posted the article this ain't my fight NASA is government thus OVERPRICED private spaceflight is the future anytime government is involved these days it will fail sad but true..anyway moonraker you want that crow boiled or deep fried?
bottom line admin and the article was correct.

[Moonwalker]

Constellation manager Jeff Hanley has been removed:

I've been advised by HQ that my services as Cx PM are no longer required, effective immediately.

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=34187

Jeff Hanley Bio:

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/constellation/ares/flighttests/aresIx/j_hanley_bio.html

[bjbeard]

Please use a .50cal and make it quick...

[Moonwalker]

Space policy explained...  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2HeHfVSybo

I want to do Apollo again...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4J9uvhJQM0

Those videos are hilarious, but also true.

[simking]

YA this guy does videos on my military career field as well  its true,funny but sad too

[Moonwalker]

YA this guy does videos on my military career field as well  its true,funny but sad too

I even think that with the latest depth crisis of the USA, NASA is facing its worst era in history. Without SpaceX the USA/NASA would be quite grounded