Community
On Orbit => Space Shuttle Mission Simulator (tm) => Topic started by: Admin on June 21, 2008, 02:42:57 PM
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More info here (http://www.space-shuttle-mission.com/forum/index.php?topic=1772.0).
Enjoy,
/Admin
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Sorry, but it just seems like time and money could have been spent better than this. Maybe with more information it would help me understand but without a 3D clickable cockpit I don't see how this is much of a selling point.
With Track IR we already have 6 degrees of movement, these glasses only have 3 and it looks like resolution is only 640x480 with possible support to 1024x768. I play at 1600x1200.
I guess maybe you have to see it in action but at $400.00? Would rather have malfunctions, clickable 3D, more systems modeled, etc...
Maybe I don't represent the market very well either....
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640x480?
Bleh. I agree that time could have been spent on other things. There is a very small market for VR goggles right now due to the low resolution they provide. Track IR is much more widespread and Im glad that we have the support already.
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Yoda: "Not talk before you see, you should!" ;)
Similarly, I always tell my sons to taste first and only after that, decide if they like the dish or not.
The iWear SSM2007 beta support is awe-inspiring and believe me, once you see everything in stereoscopy you never want to go back to ANYTHING - and we do have TripleHead2Go and TrackIR:PRO. I agree that US$400 for the glasses is intimidating, but if you can afford it, you should definitely try iWear.
We have seen most, if not all of the mainstream stereoscopy products on the market and I must emphasize - this is far, FAR from those almost insulting products.
Yes, the 3D cockpit, EVA and all the cameras provide stunning 3D effects and an immersion no other product can offer.
Yes, it is not perfect. The native res is only 640x480 and it auto-scales from 1024x768. You would be surprised however how well it does it. I can even work Windows while wearing them! Of course it is NOT comparable to the full 1280x1024 or more, but it is surprisingly impressive and effective nevertheless. If you want higher native resolutions in this department, you better prepare @3K-5K for the lower side of the pro spectrum. We are VERY pleased with the results. The switches labels are readable, the on-screen checklist is VERY readable and the stereoscopic effect is definitely there in full glory, full brightness and contrast and smoothness. Even the MFDs are reasonably readable - especially during landing :P
It has only 3DoF for the head tracker, but it is very suitable and workable. Our mouse has only 3DoF too, and didn't hear anybody complain. HOWEVER, if you have TrackIR:PRO, you're in luck, as in SSM you have the option to select TrackIR for tracking instead of the 3DoF iWear head tracker. Do I hear applause? 8)
iWear also has embedded stereo headphones - not HiFi and the basses are not impressive but they are very adequate for the SSM. In any case, the headphones can be taken off, and you can always use your preferred headphones or speakers.
What's more, it also runs many other cool games that you may already own - Crysis, Call of Duty 4, MS FSX, etc. I know, I tried them already.
We feel that for $400 this product delivers the best this technology can offer today for the price, and more.
After too many disappointments in the past with other products, I can definitely say that true and quality stereoscopy for mainstream PC gaming is finally here.
Pity I cannot post 3D sneak peeks on the forum to prove my point. This is one instance when you either bite the bullet and buy the thing, or read reviews and see it on shows, at a shop or at a friend's to verify the claims.
Finally, with iWear support, we can safely say that SSM2007 covers the most popular (and cool) under $500 display/tracking technologies today: TrackIR:Pro, TripleHead2Go and iWear true stereoscopy.
My 2c,
/Admin
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"as in SSM you have the option to select TrackIR for tracking instead of the 3DoF iWear head tracker"
WOW! This is looking even more tempting now!!, now would anybody trade a wife and couple of kids for one of these?? or do i need to get my credit card out again?
Ceri ;D ;D
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We have seen most, if not all of the mainstream stereoscopy products on the market and I must emphasize - this is far, FAR from those almost insulting products.
I respectfully disagree. I am using various stereo 3d products from the mid 90's (I own and use a stereoscopic 3d camera from the mid 60s !!!).
For the common user, the LCD stereoglass, for less than 100 bucks, working on all resolutions what your computer and your monitor is capable to display, is much better for a newcomer. Over the years I found out that many people doesn't enjoy the stereo 3d at all. I never understood why, but they just don't. For people like that, it must be infuriating to spend hundreds of dollars and end up with something they simply don't care about. As far as the HMDs go, the resolution for the <1000 dollars units are unacceptable these days. 640x480 on the Space Shuttle Simulator? Give me break. I have a difficult time to see some of the details in 1280x960. Too bad that my LCD stereoglass doesn't work on my new computer and LCD monitor (my old computer with CRT monitor is still set up, but too slow for the Space Shuttle Simulator). So, I run it mono. I wish it would be 3d stereo, but I am not willing to spend 400 dollars for 640x480 display.
Additionally: I just got the Space Shuttle Simulator (I used a 1991 version by Virgin Software). I use my computer as a default 1024x768 resolution. SSS doesn't even start up on that resolution and gives me an error message that can't switch into the required resolution. I have to manually change the resolution to 1280x960, later manually switch back. Any fix for this (to have automatic resolution change)?
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1. Do you actually HAVE the Vuzix HMD? Did you try it? I bet you did NOT! If not, then please do not offer advice about something you haven't tried! And if yes, well, then you're entitled to your personal opinion, just like I am (and everybody else). I was a BIG skeptic about consumer-grade HMD stereoscopy too before I put Vuzix on. I had some "interesting" experiences with an older consumer-grade HMD which thankfully, now it is not produced anymore. That junk cost @$800!
You'd be surprised how well and effectively Vuzix uses 640x480 resolution is and since it interpolates 1024x768, you can even use it with Windows, although admittedly I do not recommend you do that for more than 10 minutes.
And we do not support or plan to support "steroglasses" - sorry. These pathetic polarizing "flippers" are utterly useless and reduce the resolution and screen intensity by half. You also need to use them in relative darkness to be a bit more effective. They do not work well with LCD monitors due to the LCD slower refresh rate. The manufacturer recommends 120Hz and then says tey also work with 75HZ - WRONG! The manufacturer tried to adapt them to the LCD technology, but failed. The resulting 3D image is really murky... I tried a number of them on a professional 19" CRT, including the so called "works with LCD version" (still laying around and collecting dust in my bottom drawer). It was always a relief to take them off and play the games without them. These glasses which have ZERO native games support these days - maybe other software developers know something? Then you are left with their "generic 3D support" which is almost insulting.They do cost $99 and well, you get what you pay for, but in case of these pathetic flippers you get much less! If you care, you may want to read my impression about those glasses over in the Guru3D forum.
2. SSM2007 automatically uses the maximum Windows desktop resolution so there is NO NEED to change it within the sim. But you are talking about SSS and mentioning the Virgin game.... are we all on the same wavelength here? AFAIK SSM2007 DOES work at the 1024x768 resolution. We had to do that in order to support the Vuzix HMD. That suport goes back @5 months or more. You need to use Service Pack 2.30 and you're in business.
/Admin
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I think time spent on adding Vuzix support will be about 0.00001% of the time it will take to make a real click-able 3D cockpit. ;D
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just a quick reminder.. this thread is from JUNE..
Vusix support was added back in 1.36
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Admin, I have a question about the stereoscopic. I worked at NASA for a short time and was fortunate enough to go into their simulators and mockups. One in particular was a nonmotion based mid-deck and flight deck where when you looked through the rear cargo bay windows it looked like the entire payload bay and back of the shuttle was "in real life" there and when I moved around I got a slightly different view. I guess what I am trying to say is even though it was a computer image it was like looking a a real-life cargo bay of the space shuttle, it wasnt a flat image of a 3d payload bay, it was a true to life image. Is that what the Vuzix stereoscopic means.
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Admin, I have a question about the stereoscopic. I worked at NASA for a short time and was fortunate enough to go into their simulators and mockups. One in particular was a nonmotion based mid-deck and flight deck where when you looked through the rear cargo bay windows it looked like the entire payload bay and back of the shuttle was "in real life" there and when I moved around I got a slightly different view. I guess what I am trying to say is even though it was a computer image it was like looking a a real-life cargo bay of the space shuttle, it wasnt a flat image of a 3d payload bay, it was a true to life image. Is that what the Vuzix stereoscopic means.
Yes, I know EXACTLY what you mean ;-) and YES, you'll get exactly the same effect - it's true stereoscopy. As we say: "this is the closest you can get to the NASA VR labs".
Enjoy!
/Admin
PS: and the iWear HMD supports other games too, so this is not a one-time, specific investment, although I dare say, opur support is close to perfect and very effective - especially within the 3D cockpit and while doing EVA.
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Thank you for the quick response. OMG!!!!!! I have to get it now. If anyone else reads this, trust me the stereoscopic is AWSOME!!!!!! The real simulator at the Johnson Space Center uses it in their sims. Actually AWSOME doesnt even scratch the surface, I am going to buy the goggles just for the stereoscopic view but it comes with other things as well. By the way, for those who don't know how to shop online the goggles which are 400 from the main site can go for as low as 322, you just have to look around. Thank you again, and will be buying them tomorrow ;D ;D ;D
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:) I am sure you'll enjoy them, especially with SSM2007.
Please note that we have "fine tunig" for each SSM2007 view (F, F1, F3) using the "A" and "S" keys I think (read the manual). This is there to adjust perfectly toy anyone's eyes distance and get the best stereoscopic effect for the given POV. These are one-time settings and once they're done, they are saved in the config file until you change them again.
If you have optical glasses do NOT take them off. iWear can and should be used on top of the glasses. I wear optical glasses and I took them off instinctively, but then realized that I cannot see well since the HMD does not have any kind of dioptry adjustment, but they can be worn with optical glasses.
Enjoy,
/Admin
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Admin,
Just out of curiosity, did you demo this at the I/ITSEC Conference this year? How did it go anyway?
Again, sorry I missed out on this event, as I was out on vacation and would have really enjoyed seeing your display.
/me
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Regarding TrackIR, which version would go best with the Vuzix goggles?
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iWear has its own head tracking:
Pro: you can move your head wherever you want withiut worrying that you are not in the cone of vision of an IR transciever.
Con: only 3 Dof (roll, pitch, yaw).
TrackIR:
Pro: 6 DoF
Con: you must be in the IR transciever cone of vision so you cannot look around 270 degrees.
In our case, we can select which head tracking to use so you can use iWear with TrackIR tracking.
SSM2007 supports TrackIR:Pro.
/Admin
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Thank you for that information. I prefere the 6 DOV so I will get the trackir pro to go with the vuzix goggles and just disable the 3DOV on the goggles. Cant wait for this experience. Will let everyone know just how well it works out once I recieve both items. Oh and I will be purchasing the adapter for the goggles that blocks out all the light from other sources.
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1. Do you actually HAVE the Vuzix HMD? Did you try it? I bet you did NOT! If not, then please do not offer advice about something you haven't tried! And if yes, well, then you're entitled to your personal opinion, just like I am (and everybody else). I was a BIG skeptic about consumer-grade HMD stereoscopy too before I put Vuzix on. I had some "interesting" experiences with an older consumer-grade HMD which thankfully, now it is not produced anymore. That junk cost @$800!
You are the boss around here, so I am not going to argue. Just one remark: I am 61 years old and I am into stereoscopic 3d since age 13 (the how and why is a very long story). Anyway..........
You'd be surprised how well and effectively Vuzix uses 640x480 resolution is and since it interpolates 1024x768, you can even use it with Windows, although admittedly I do not recommend you do that for more than 10 minutes.
That means it is capable to display a 1024x768 input, but due to the pixel numbers the display is still 640x480.
And we do not support or plan to support "steroglasses" - sorry.
I understand that.
These pathetic polarizing "flippers" are utterly useless and reduce the resolution and screen intensity by half.
I could ask what was the last time you have tried the "pageflippers", but I won't.
Not it doesn't reduce the resolution. The pageflipping method displays whatever the actual resolution of the screen is. You probably have the interlaced method in mind. That cuts the resolution in half. As well as the upper-lower method. You are right about the intensity, but you can always compensate that with the screen brightness and contrast setting.
You also need to use them in relative darkness to be a bit more effective. They do not work well with LCD monitors due to the LCD slower refresh rate. The manufacturer recommends 120Hz and then says tey also work with 75HZ - WRONG! The manufacturer tried to adapt them to the LCD technology, but failed. The resulting 3D image is really murky... I tried a number of them on a professional 19" CRT, including the so called "works with LCD version" (still laying around and collecting dust in my bottom drawer). It was always a relief to take them off and play the games without them. These glasses which have ZERO native games support these days - maybe other software developers know something? Then you are left with their "generic 3D support" which is almost insulting.
1. You are right about the LCD monitors. On those the LCD stereoglass rather useless.
2. The native support was no longer needed since the end of the 90s. Since then, nVidia (unfortunately not the latest versions) had a hardware decoder which could pick up the 3d geometric information from programs (like those using DirectX) and translate it into a separate left-right eye picture and pageflip it to the (CRT) monitors, giving a perfectly fluid 3d display with surprisingly negligible frame rate loss.
They do cost $99 and well, you get what you pay for, but in case of these pathetic flippers you get much less! If you care, you may want to read my impression about those glasses over in the Guru3D forum.
Since the Space Shuttle Simulator doesn't support the LCD stereoglass, there is really no point to argue much.
2. SSM2007 automatically uses the maximum Windows desktop resolution so there is NO NEED to change it within the sim. But you are talking about SSS and mentioning the Virgin game.... are we all on the same wavelength here? AFAIK SSM2007 DOES work at the 1024x768 resolution. We had to do that in order to support the Vuzix HMD. That suport goes back @5 months or more. You need to use Service Pack 2.30 and you're in business.
Want to bet that my copy of the Shuttle Simulator doesn't automatically set the resolution from my default 1024x768? Say, the cost of the program :)
Yes, I updated to SP 2.30 from day one. I can prove it with screen shots.
Peace,
Gabor
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Hi Gabor,
It's hard to see where you're quoting and where you are writing...
But the Game does adjust its resolution in the 3D mode... the Main menu only scales down to your screen resolution (sometimes leaving black borders) so that the images would not be distorted.
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Just in:
Some new info about Vuzix produtcs:
http://www.vuzix.com/site/_support/Dev_Newsletter/Vuzix_VR920_Developer_Newsletter_12-08.pdf
/Admin
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Well I have the goggles and trackir. I am having issues trying to play on my new computer but as soon as admin or support emails me back(I have sent two emails requesting help but have heard nothing back) I can tell you how good or bad the game is with the new equippment I have.
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Well I have the goggles and trackir. I am having issues trying to play on my new computer but as soon as admin or support emails me back(I have sent two emails requesting help but have heard nothing back) I can tell you how good or bad the game is with the new equippment I have.
I've checked and we received only one email from you. Activation support was sent some time ago :)
/Admin
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[EDITED BY ADMIN]
Hi Gabor,
Please continue the resolution conversation in the Hints and Tips thread we have opened just for you. Thank you.
/Admin
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They look sweet, but I'm saving up for a MacBook Air.
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Had some difficulty with the first pair of goggles, waiting for my new pair to arrive in the mail, but I did get a short chance to see the game with the goggles on and it looked pretty good. Dont take those words as my eval of the goggles as it was not enough to make a complete judgement. Stay tuned.
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What was the problem with the first pair?
/Admin
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Well the problem I had was, when ever I plugged the goggles in to the computer they would not turn on, I had to give them a little shake and then the screens would flicker on, then if I moved them around the screens would flicker and go off and I couldnt get them to come back on. It would do that every time and I tried to adjust every thing I could think that may have been the cause of it. In the end though I was told they were defective and to send them back in. A new pair is being sent to me right now and hopefully will arrive today in the mail. Im keeping my fingers crossed that these will work without a hitch.