Author Topic: A show of hands for those who think we're going backwards......  (Read 21892 times)

kbkline

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A show of hands for those who think we're going backwards......
« on: December 31, 2010, 08:19:30 PM »
 Whatever happened to our pride as a nation? We are who we are because we did not just sit back and watch everyone else move forward. Many moons ago we were in a race with the Russians on everything. (Military, space, etc) When the Russians blasted off into space first, we had to do better than that. We wanted the moon! A quote for John F Kennedy: The exploration of space will go ahead, whether we join in it or not, and it is one of the great adventures of all time, and no nation which expects to be the leader of other nations can expect to stay behind in this race for space. SO what happened to this line of thinking? There have been too many generations of politicians that have turned NASA into a big pile of buricratic red-tape waste!

Moving forward, I have been SO disappointed about the shuttles being grounded and put out of service. There's no way we can do half of the things we've been able to do without the shuttles. (grab satellites and repair as an example) People want to say cost is the reason. I say bull! Stop spending millions/billions on recearching for pointless things and trying to find ET. Focus on the manned side of space and cut out a bunch of red tape. I know it will never happen and that's the sad part.

I've tried to be more open minded about going back to the capsule. I went to Johnson Space Center just to see if I could get more interested in the Constellation program. I figured that at least we were making a capsule that held 8 people so that was a start. Then came the news (because of cost) we would have to make it smaller. (going backwards again) Then after they do a test on the engines the program gets cut! Billions down the drain with NO plans for the future except to pay the Russians $50+ million per astronaut. Awesome plan NASA!

I too have a not-so-good outlook when it comes to space and this country. I have no problems with the private sector taking over. It can be done cheaper and faster. The problem is the private companies cannot afford to be able to do something in shuttle range due to the huge expense of maintaining it. Well I guess I’ll just have to take comfort in knowing that no matter what I’ll always have my space shuttle sim.

Moonwalker

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Re: A show of hands for those who think we're going backwards......
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2011, 02:43:41 AM »
A quote for John F Kennedy: The exploration of space will go ahead, whether we join in it or not, and it is one of the great adventures of all time, and no nation which expects to be the leader of other nations can expect to stay behind in this race for space. SO what happened to this line of thinking?

Honestly, althgough Kennedy was a great politician of his time, but I have my problems whenever statesmen talk about being the leader of other nations. Be it Kennedy (who was not only a little innocent as told by the Pentagon Papers, i.e. Vietnam story etc.) or somebody else. This exactly was what kept the cold war alive for decades. But it did on both sides of the the pond, in the "evil" west and the "evil" east. The US and European propaganda against the Soviet Union back then was not less misleading of the public opinion than the Soviet propaganda against the west. Not to mention secret US submarine meneuvers in the European sea etc. to pretend a Soviet threat even more...

Seriously, I'm glad that the world is different these days. What Europe, Russia and the USA has accomplished in space together within the last two decades is an amazing step forward. In comparison, Apollo, as amazing as and as big a it was within the media, just was a small step for a few men with a little scientific outcome. It was a political program in the first hand. Of course technologically it was a giant leap in humans history. But on the scientific side and talking about sustainability it was nothing more than a program of Pomp and Circumstance just to demonstrate US superiority. If one thinks that politicans were ever interested in the Moon and the related sciences, that's a big fallacy. It was all about authority and saber-rattling. The big show already ended after only 3 years, with Nixon in the office and many NASA people leaving the agency disappointedly because they did not see promising future. Even inlcuding Wernher von Braun etc. The STS program only took place by luck. It would have been canceled pretty neigh. Only the promising military benefit kept it alive, but the Air Force quite soon withdraw from NASA contracts as soon as one realised that the program won't be what the estimations were promising.

In the context of Apollo, Constellation would have been nothing more than "Apollo on steorids". What is happening right now is what already would have happened after Apollo if the Congress did not pass STS through. Actually this is a big chance for politicians and NASA to restructure what has to be restructured. But one does not see it happening sadly, beside commercial sectors taking over access to space.

I figured that at least we were making a capsule that held 8 people so that was a start. Then came the news (because of cost) we would have to make it smaller.

It was basically because of weight issues, i.e. design issues of Ares 1. The problem was, which a lot of rocket engineers did criticize, that they did design Ares 1 and tried to fit Orion to it. It would have been wiser to first design Orion and then chose/design the launch vehicle. It was for sure very early, that Orion will shrink and change significantly.

Billions down the drain with NO plans for the future except to pay the Russians $50+ million per astronaut. Awesome plan NASA!

That was what Constellation exactly was about. There never was any funding for more than Ares 1 and a shrinked earth orbit version of Orion. No Moon rocket (Ares V) and less than ever any serious Moon hardware. Constellation did not offer any serious strategies, less than ever true science and innvoation which was what made many many people disappointed right from the beginning, even including NASA people. You could read it in blogs and forums. But you never heared anything in interviews of course. But they never were optimistic if one listens carefully. Program managers always were busy to defend what was going on in the media, caused by many sceptical voices. "Moon, Mars and beyond" was nothing more than just an empty political slogan announced by G.W. Bush to encourage NASA after the second loss of a Shuttle.

How the future of NASAs manned program looks is quite uncertain. But I think that the future of manned space flight still is promising. Russia is working on a new Soyuz version which would be able to be operated beyond low earth orbit. Europe may man-rate the ATV for manned flights to the ISS. Then we have SpaceX which is also quite promising right now. And then there are HLV concepts at NASA going on. We might see Orion still lifting off manned, but I guess at the end of the decade... Although NASA is in s..t curently, there were never that many space flight activities in history which is happening since the Shuttle-Mir missions and now ISS ;) Actually, if you compare what we had with Apollo, a small 3-men capsule, today we have a lot of big hardware in space.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2011, 02:52:57 AM by Moonwalker »

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Re: A show of hands for those who think we're going backwards......
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2011, 05:29:19 AM »
kbkline, meet Moonwalker.

Best of luck!

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kbkline

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Re: A show of hands for those who think we're going backwards......
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2011, 10:14:09 PM »
LOL good stuff! I just hope that someone, somewhere, will continue this manned jouney. Its a shame that we can't go back to the moon. I would have thought we would need to do that before we even thought about trying it on another planet. I still think the space community is taking a step back when the shuttles retire. Going back to capsules stink! (but that's just my opinion)

On the bright side of things, I see that Space-X is talking about making a capsule that can land on nothing larger than a heli-pad with legs like the lunar module. Should be interesting to see that design.......

I just realized this thread has NOTHING to do with sapce shuttle missions  ::)  sorry.....

Spaceguy5

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Re: A show of hands for those who think we're going backwards......
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2011, 07:25:32 AM »
Yeah <__________< Instead of the nation just thinking "K... We made it to the moon and beat the Russians. The end!," we should have built upon Apollo and went further. There were plenty of ideas for advanced Apollo missions, but nothing ever materialized and the program got cut D=
STS-8, STS-26, STS-27, STS-88, STS-93, STS-100, STS-116, STS-130, Arex 1X Testflight

Moonwalker

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Re: A show of hands for those who think we're going backwards......
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2011, 05:28:02 PM »
Yeah <__________< Instead of the nation just thinking "K... We made it to the moon and beat the Russians. The end!," we should have built upon Apollo and went further. There were plenty of ideas for advanced Apollo missions, but nothing ever materialized and the program got cut D=

Apollo was too expensive anyway.

NASA must come up with something different in terms of budget and sustainability. I wouldn't say NASA goes backwards, but it just moves not forward these days. What has been accomplished with the ISS is a big leap. But now they find theirselves in the same situation than in the late 1980's. The Heavy Lift proposal which NASA lately delivered to Congress (http://www.spacenews.com/civil/110111-nasa-heavy-lift-proposal.html) is nothing new at all. It's equal to the 1991 National Launch System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Launch_System) and other previous proposals. The problem with the HLV proposal is that one does not need a HLV just to launch Orion into low earth orbit. And what else they are going to launch on top of it? Nothing yet. No serious concepts at all at this time. But anyway, as long as they don't come up with something different than a big new rocket, there won't be any HLV anytime soon under the current budget promises anyway.

Tempest

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Re: A show of hands for those who think we're going backwards......
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2011, 01:36:05 PM »
Sorry-but I'm  not going to get into it. Not going to wear a hair shirt.

NOBODY and I mean NOBODY does it better then us. Nor are they as consistent. Not the Chinese, Russians, Europeans. None of them are giants 10 ft tall.

Be it communication satellites, spy, research, interplanetary exploration and the delivery vehicles to get that stuff in orbit.  I can't think of anyone.
All of it innovative, original in design.

Ooops-I forgot to add GPS to the aforementioned list.

HLV issue is a bump in the road-nothing more. A lot has been happening in space since the moon landings. APOLLO was just one of many programs. And programs come and go. But we still put them in orbit-consistently.



« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 01:46:17 PM by Tempest »

christra

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Re: A show of hands for those who think we're going backwards......
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2011, 02:56:35 PM »
Sorry-but I'm  not going to get into it. Not going to wear a hair shirt.

NOBODY and I mean NOBODY does it better then us. Nor are they as consistent. Not the Chinese, Russians, Europeans. None of them are giants 10 ft tall.

Be it communication satellites, spy, research, interplanetary exploration and the delivery vehicles to get that stuff in orbit.  I can't think of anyone.
All of it innovative, original in design.

Ooops-I forgot to add GPS to the aforementioned list.

HLV issue is a bump in the road-nothing more. A lot has been happening in space since the moon landings. APOLLO was just one of many programs. And programs come and go. But we still put them in orbit-consistently.

I don't want to argue... sorry, but THAT is exactly the bigheaded chitchat that stirs scepticism about the US in non-US countries all over this planet. A bit too arrogant...

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Re: A show of hands for those who think we're going backwards......
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2011, 05:12:03 PM »
IMHO Moonwalker did a lot of unprovoked NASA/US bashing around here, so I guess that some "counter-pride" (not really arrogance) is warranted as a balance, especially when it is mostly true :)

Other countries, especially EU, owe to the US quite a lot from all points of view, not only scientific, so it should be expected from other countries to approach the subject with a reasonable dosage of humility, recognition, and respect, not with xenopobic rants intended to minimize past and current deeds, and ridiculize well-documented achievements.

The current wave of anti-Americanism is a combination of xenophoby, envy and desire to disconnect from a less than stellar past. And this wave is well concealed under a dishonest veil of cognitive dissonance and irrelevant excuses. I'm not saying that everything that the US has done and is doing is good and perfect, and that arrogance is a good thing but in the case of NASA, the huge contribution to universal science cannot be underestimated by anyone. Besides, arrogance was not invented in the US, and is not an American exclusive. I travelled across the world long enough to learn this first-hand. And there is a thin line between warranted pride and arrogance, depending in which side of the line you stand ;)

The US today is what the EU could have been, given the right conditions - after all, don't forget that the Americans are direct descendants of Europeans who looked for a better world, with better opportunities while breaking free of the political, racial, ethnical and historical ties of the Old World. The US Founding Fathers were Europeans, just like many of you/us. By ridiculizing the US and its obvious achievements, you're indirectly ridiculizing your own ancestors.

I hope that this won't degenerate into a nationalist pissing contest ;) That will force me to lock the thread without warning.

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« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 05:34:44 PM by Admin »
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christra

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Re: A show of hands for those who think we're going backwards......
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2011, 06:34:00 PM »
[..]

The US today is what the EU could have been, given the right conditions - after all, don't forget that the Americans are direct descendants of Europeans who looked for a better world, with better opportunities while breaking free of the political, racial, ethnical and historical ties of the Old World. The US Founding Fathers were Europeans, just like many of you/us. By ridiculizing the US an
By ridiculizing the US and its obvious achievements, you're indirectly ridiculizing your own ancestors.

I hope that this won't degenerate into a nationalist pissing contest ;) That will force me to lock the thread without warning.

/Admin
I would never dispute the technical achievements of the US. But an inhabitant could stay more modestly about it.
Braking free of racial, ethnicals ties? Do you mean the ethnic cleansing of the native americans (Indians) or the slavery or the ongoing surpressions of black people far into the 20th century? Come on... :)
I'm from a country that really has a black history concerning ethnical procecution and worse. But I think we've learned from it.

You are right. We are not here to talk about non-space political things. But your comments induced some more remarks on my side.  ;) I am awfully sorry about it.  :)

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Re: A show of hands for those who think we're going backwards......
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2011, 07:47:26 PM »
[..]

The US today is what the EU could have been, given the right conditions - after all, don't forget that the Americans are direct descendants of Europeans who looked for a better world, with better opportunities while breaking free of the political, racial, ethnical and historical ties of the Old World. The US Founding Fathers were Europeans, just like many of you/us. By ridiculizing the US an
By ridiculizing the US and its obvious achievements, you're indirectly ridiculizing your own ancestors.

I hope that this won't degenerate into a nationalist pissing contest ;) That will force me to lock the thread without warning.

/Admin
I would never dispute the technical achievements of the US. But an inhabitant could stay more modestly about it.
Braking free of racial, ethnicals ties? Do you mean the ethnic cleansing of the native americans (Indians) or the slavery or the ongoing surpressions of black people far into the 20th century? Come on... :)
I'm from a country that really has a black history concerning ethnical procecution and worse. But I think we've learned from it.

You are right. We are not here to talk about non-space political things. But your comments induced some more remarks on my side.  ;) I am awfully sorry about it.  :)


I don't want to enter the ethic cleansing and slavery arguments where Europe has done its share outside its borders when it was colonizing lands not its own, quite excelling at it in Australia, Oceania, Africa, Columbus-era Americas and Canada. Incidentally, the current-day US cannot be singled out on these issues, unless it is also considered a hereditary extension of Europe, which de facto it was until close to 100 years - only three generation - ago, with the conclusion of the great immigration waves spurred by the break of WWI and WWII.

However, the argument started with somebody bashing indiscriminately NASA's achievements and trying to dilute its contribution to science and again, its proven and on-going superiority when compared to other agencies, while the other proudly showed his nation's documented and unquestionable achievements in Space. IMHO you read his pride as arrogance and I tried to correct it.

Let's not single-out one word from my whole post, take it to another context and develop a new subject on it. This is not the place to do it. Besides nobody will have a higher moral ground anyway, since every nation and people have accumulated enough skeletons during the course of its history, to put the others to "shame".

Let's keep those skeletons out of this forum and stick to NASA/space exploration.

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Moonwalker

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Re: A show of hands for those who think we're going backwards......
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2011, 09:24:26 AM »
Sorry for the upcoming wall of text, but...

that we owe to the US quite a lot in terms of space flight, which I guess is meant to suggest that we owe the most to the US..., I am not too sure about it. We certainly owe the US manned Moon landings and quite a long era of Shuttle flights. But we actually owe space flight to Germans and Russians in the first place. The first satellite, the first being (the dog "Laika", we all know), the first human (and also the first woman btw.) was send into space by Russia, not by the US. And Russia also performed the first EVA. This is what most people do forget, especially Americans when they start their patriotism machine "we are the best/first" (it implies somebody else is not which is s****d thinking and in a lot of cases historically incorrect anyway). Russia failed at flying to the Moon manned. But they were quite ahead of any other nation in terms of operating a space station for 15 years (Mir) and performing long terms stays in space (before Mir the longest stay in space was 84 days aboard Skylab). The USA was big on Apollo and STS. But don't forget Buran, which sadly suffered from the break up of the Soviet Union.

The USA contributed to the progress of space flight significantly in some aspects. But it was not the first and not the only nation to do so. And Europe, being the hole between the right buttock (Russia) and the left buttock (the USA) at least came up with Concorde (and again Russia also had its own) which is something the USA hasn't got until today (and no other kind of airplane that can stay at twice the speed of sound in cruise for two hours without using any reheat). NASA got a Tu144 in the mid 1990's for supersonic test flights (the reason why they did not get Concorde was that it simply was still in service :)).

In terms of space flight an aviation there always was more than just one big nation. And today there is more anyway, with Airbus replacing almost entire American airliners fleets, and even being confident enough to refuse to sell the A380 for the Air Force One as requestet by the US gov. (Airbus does not do so because of technological spionage concerns).

And yes, about 75% of all Americans are direct descendants of Europeans. This always leds me to call America the small brother of Europe :P (especially in respect of technological achievements of the 19th and 20th century...).

Things which seem big are not really as big as one looks closer to it. Sure, we have to owe democracy and some other things to the US. And as a European and especailly German I am thankful that the US did free Europe from that national socialist virus in 1945. But, I am thankful to the pre-1960's USA. And that's important to mention. Because the post-1950's USA was and is different. I don't have to mention Vietnam which was based on lots of lies (i.e. Daniel Ellsberg - Pentagon Papers...) just as Iraq was. And I really don't like the foreign-policy wheeling and dealing the US does (also partly through dirty beef by the CIA) in some regions of the world. And this is not anti-americanism. It's a view on sad facts. But this also goes to the European Union. Both, the US and the EU appears to be arrogant and to follow hidden imperialistic motivation. They have to be very caerful.

But back to NASA: NASA is not only about sending manned rockets into the sky. NASA indeed does contribute the most to the world in terms of planetary research, atmospheric research etc. But manned space flight is just a very small scientific part of NASA. The ongoing HLV issue for some 20 years now are just a bump in the road for all that is behind the term NASA, yes, but it is going to be a big hole in the road of NASAs manned program. No news for decades regarding those HLV proposals which are almost as old as I am. But there is on difference these days: soon the Shuttle will be no more. So people should be very careful to say that "nobody does it better". NASA, i.e. the US government does it that "good" that soon NASA will buy Russian resources. That's what the stone cold reality looks like.

Russia is on the same level as the USA for decades in terms of sending humans into low earth orbit. And Europe as well as China is catching-up in rocketry/space flight. Nobody is "the best" or "the biggest". The world has changed, and especially aside from what US commercial television journalists report all along...
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 09:34:40 AM by Moonwalker »

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Re: A show of hands for those who think we're going backwards......
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2011, 12:43:02 PM »
...which proves my point quite clearly :)

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davidrobinsonjr

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Re: A show of hands for those who think we're going backwards......
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2011, 07:11:29 AM »
Let me say that my only interest here is to add a few things to Moonwalkers "wall of text".

Although the Germans and the Soviets improved on it, the father of modern rocketry is Dr. Robert Goddard. The Germans and Von Braun used his designs to develop and fly the V2. This is fairly well documented, the easiest being:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_H._Goddard

The Amercans had their own SST Program. It was canceled for economic and political reasons. It was to be twice as big as Concorde and would cruise at Mach 3. It was based on the XB-70 which first flew in 1964, five years before Concorde.
http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=592

The Concorde and TU-144 are neat airplanes don't get me wrong. But at roughly $10,000 USD for a round trip from New York to London, Concorde was a bit like the Constellation Program vs Falcon. The TU-144 was retired after 55 passenger carrying flights for both technical and economic reasons. Not much of a sucess other than as an excercise.
As for space stations while the Soviets launched Salyut 1 in 1971, two years before Skylab, it was occupied only once for 23 days. It wasn't until 1974 with Salyut 4 that they had real sucess. I guess my point is that while the Soviets were good at beating the Americans to the punch, it was almost always in the form of a one time stunt. The Americans were  and are able to repeat things time after time. If they have a problem it is they can't seem to focus. Apollo was great but short lived. The Shuttle was longer lived but no follow up.

As for Airbus refusing to sell 380's to the U.S. for Airforce One because they are worried about them stealing technology, perhaps you would share your source. I am not very knowledable about the subject and the only thing I could find is Airbus saying it doesn' fit their business model at this time. http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/AF1-012809.xml&headline=Boeing%20Only%20Contender%20for%20New%20Air%20Force%20One&channel=defense
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kbkline

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Re: A show of hands for those who think we're going backwards......
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2011, 09:19:43 PM »
Ooooooookie dookie now....... How did we go from my question about going backwards to fighting over who's the best country?  ;D  I thought this might happened so I really choose my words carefuly in the original post. (how did that work out?) Nice to see that I can provoke some stimulating conversation though :o

But back to my original question: If you can put aside your thoughts, opinions, and some times correct analysis of why it's just not affordable, I just can't see how you folks can still say we're not going backwards. Going from a shuttle based system to a capsule based system in my opinion is backwards. No more working on satillites and things of that nature. To bad the Russian Shuttle Buran was destroyed when the roof of the hanger it was in collapsed in May 2002.

But we'll always have our Shuttle Simulator!  :-*