Author Topic: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft  (Read 61995 times)

Moonwalker

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Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #75 on: December 23, 2010, 09:33:43 PM »
Well, I'm aware of what's going on at NASA ;)

But people really have to get rid of that thinking that everything NASA does is based on NASA's own decisions. The reality is that almost everything NASA does is decided in Wahsington, based on politics, and not decided by wise scientists and managers. They are puppets, even including the NASA admin. One may call it bashing NASA. But that's the sad truth.

Since NASA does not get the money which would have been required for Constellation, they are forced to rely on something else instead. Or as one might call, they have "options". A HLV and a potential future operation of Orion being more than just a lifeboat for the ISS still is talk and will remain basically theory and plans for years still. There is no flying hardware yet (just like there never was on Constellation; no, Ares 1-X was modified Shuttle hardware and mockups).

Of course NASA doesn't need to buy SpaceX flights. But the result would be: no US support of the ISS for years. But if one doesn't like to call it "forced", I am willing to call it "option" beside the other "option" of buying seats on the Russian launcher if it sounds nicer ;D

And yes, I guess it's not a secret that I'm not at all confident of how NASA is forced to rely on politics for the matter of fact .

http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n1012/21nasacr/
« Last Edit: December 23, 2010, 09:36:54 PM by Moonwalker »

christra

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Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #76 on: December 23, 2010, 10:12:08 PM »
I think somebody has to have the final say and everything else is said I guess.

And before Moonwalker is talking to himself it might be better to close this thread. But I'll wait some time for it... in case somebody needs another "venting".  ;)

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Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #77 on: December 23, 2010, 11:36:15 PM »
Well, so much for how much you are aware of what's going on at NASA - LOL!

But that's not important. As I said, this conversation is over for me since it has degraded into an out-of-context NASA bashing fest, without too much substance behind it.

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Moonwalker

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Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #78 on: December 24, 2010, 12:36:31 AM »
Beside potentially closing this thread, it might not be a good idea to post a non-Space Shuttle mission related thread in a Space Shuttle based froum in which one probably will meet > 90% almost uncritically NASA proponents. The discussion actually makes no sense at all on this place. So it was my fault that I did post it. Especially if one consideres what happens when mentioning the fact within just one sentence that now somebody else than NASA (a small company) has cheap access to space for the first time in history.

Don't worry, I won't bother you with SpaceX's progress anymore ;)
« Last Edit: December 24, 2010, 12:39:29 AM by Moonwalker »

christra

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Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #79 on: December 24, 2010, 01:00:32 AM »
I will leave it open.

But I don't know why you think that here are >90% uncritically NASA proponents. Where is this number from?
The hard discussion was mainly between you and Admin. Towards the end two more guys were chiming in. So better don't blame the majority here of having a certain position without knowing it exactly. Even saying "probably" is inappropriate here.

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Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #80 on: December 24, 2010, 01:33:19 AM »
I will leave it open.

But I don't know why you think that here are >90% uncritically NASA proponents. Where is this number from?
The hard discussion was mainly between you and Admin. Towards the end two more guys were chiming in. So better don't blame the majority here of having a certain position without knowing it exactly. Even saying "probably" is inappropriate here.

Yes, again using numbers without actually knowing facts.

FYI, nobody can accuse me of not being critical of NASA, or being against SpaceX, but there is a difference between being "critical" and being negative about everything that NASA does and positive about everything SpaceX does, or vice-versa. I mean seriously, don't you think that NASA has been doing a pretty good job most of the time for the last 30 years, while SpaceX has probably made (and will be making) quite a few mistakes too?

That obvious attitude makes you sound biased and inflexible, and as such, almost incapable of conducting a constructive, evolving, involving and interesting dialogue.

Maybe that's the main reason why the rest of the "90%" didn't join in, even if at times, like me, they partly agree with you.

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spaceboy7441

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Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #81 on: December 24, 2010, 01:56:33 AM »
Yes I echo Admin. This discussion was not about us being against SpaceX. I actually think it is quite awesome and think it would be a great PARTNER to NASA. I'm not against either of these programs. I am for both. The issue here was that you were giving false facts and were not backing yourself up with sources and you were contradicting yourself a lot. I think it would be great to leave this topic open for discussion, not bashing of either program.
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Moonwalker

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Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #82 on: December 24, 2010, 02:16:19 AM »
As for the 90%: I think it is obvious that it's nothing more than my estimation since there is no poll or whatsoever ;) If you would visist a vegetarian forum for example and start talking about eating meat, you probably won't find a lot of proponents ;D

don't you think that NASA has been doing a pretty good job most of the time for the last 30 years,

Yes, I think so as I have mentioned a few times. STS did offer way more scientific capabilities than Apollo did. And away from that money/budegt talk, from the engineering point of view STS is an awesome achievement without any doubt (just as Apollo was). That's why we are here and why SSM does exist :)

But what makes me rather nervous and disappointed is that NASA is suffering from structual issues causing a huge amount of unnecessary bureaucracy and costs and also turn it into a big job machine and election campaign. Constellation really was a big mistake although I was quite amazed previously. I don't think, and the Augustine Commission and many others think, that this was the right path for a future sustainable program. All that was amazing was their advertising and computer animations. But the required costs and timeline was anything but acceptable.

Also, while some people literally demonize commerzialisation of space, I think what for example Aldrin and many others think, that it will benefit the national goals by lowering costs because of way less bureaucracy etc. As we can see, no matter if SpaceX gets money from NASA, that something like SpaceX in fact can perform space flight by relatively low costs, so far. I don't see a reason why commerzial companies should not do the transportation part just for the sake to see NASA doing it. Yes, transportation and exploration is not the same. But it's not rigorously separable. Remember that STS basically was meant to be a profitable space transportation system from the beginning.

while SpaceX has probably made (and will be making) quite a few mistakes too?

Yes. I've never said SpaceX will be flawless all the time. What I'm saying is that SpaceX is the first company with access to space and which can offer it relatively cheap without being a big expensive bureaucracy.

That obvious attitude makes you sound biased and inflexible, and as such, almost incapable of conducting a constructive, evolving, involving and interesting dialogue.

Maybe that's the main reason why the rest of the "90%" didn't join in, even if at times, like me, they partly agree with you.

I also think that this forum is quite calm anyway, but which is not meant as a criticism. What SpaceX does do at the moment, combined with my jabbering, might not even interest a lot of people as long as they don't send humans into space...

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Moonwalker

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Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #84 on: January 03, 2011, 01:41:24 AM »
Quote
NASA, why make a rocket?

Decades of experience shows a big-ticket space project developed wholly by the government will:

Take years longer than estimated to complete.

Cost taxpayers billions more dollars than advertised.

Fly with less capability than originally envisioned.

Unless, of course, the government changes the way it deals with contractors on those kinds of projects.

http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20110102/COLUMNISTS0405/101020325/1007/news02/John+Kelly++NASA++why+make+a+rocket?

bjbeard

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Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #85 on: February 02, 2011, 11:56:01 PM »
Moonwalker = Troll

Don't feed the Troll.

uri_ba

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Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #86 on: February 03, 2011, 12:19:20 PM »
I'm not an American, So I do not really have a saying in this. but...

1. Private companies do things relatively cheap because they keep things simple. and economic. re-supplying the ISS would give them X launches a year, and they would be paid Y USD per launch. I'm sure that the contract say exactly what is the minimum amount of launches and what would be the cost of each. they do the math. they have Z USD they will get, and they must maximize their profit. they get some government funding for R&D. so they know what the budget limit is. and count on being as cheap as the Russians in that. same for manned flights. they need to be as cheap as the suyozes.

2. NO private company will make any ground shaking breakthroughs in technology. they WILL improve existing tech. but you would see nothing new. invention is the mother of all R&D Budgets. they can't afford it and be economical. if someone can give me one example of an original invention is aviation that didn't derive from existing military/government tech. I would love to be proven wrong..

3. NO private company will on it's own will go and explore. it just doesn't make any economic sense. if in the 60s the goverment would have asked spaceX to build something to go to the moon, then Kennedy would probably get a question saying "how much are we going to get paid?" and trust me. the costs would have been just the same as the apollo program cost back them. just because of R&D.

4. NO private company would go build a moon base. unless you would discover some "unobtenium" there, and they would get an exclusive mining right on it.. and then they will even travel across galaxies.. but someone else must discover it first...

5. Federal budgets going into Government agencies are "sum 0" play. No one get's rich (so no money "get's lost" - it's hardware and personal only), a lot of jobs are created, directly (i.e. NASA employees) and in directly (Aerospace industries, tourism, transportation, etc.). they pay taxes, so some comes back to the country, and they have jobs, so they have bigger buy force which drives the economy. like a modern age "new deal" if you can see the general concept.

6. Federal R&D money develops new technology, that in turn will roll into civilian aerospace industry and from there down to every other aspect that might use that technology (automotive industries, medical community, etc.). just look at who many technology leaps have been done in the cold war era now compare it to post cold war..
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bjbeard

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Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #87 on: March 01, 2011, 11:26:02 AM »
Nice post!

BTW I think it's spelled Unobtanium

schmidtrock

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Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #88 on: March 01, 2011, 10:30:08 PM »
Heh, great post Uri. I'm glad to see after a few months away, this thread is still alive and well. :D

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Re: SpaceX Readies First Dragon Spacecraft
« Reply #89 on: March 04, 2011, 07:15:29 PM »
Taurus 3:9 failure rate (three disasters against six successful launches) just proves that nothing is to be taken for granted - even in space transportation. This time it cost "only" +400 Million Dollars and noi human lives were lost. I surely hope that the fairing sep failure will not turn out as using componentes based on cost-saving corporate decisions at Orbital Sciences Corporation (the manufacturer of the Taurus platform)

I'd very much like to understand what hides behind their saying at the press conference that the system presented "an acceptable level of risk".

And I'd very much want to make darn sure that the "acceptable levels of risk" for SpaceX platforms does not become unancceptable when human life, and manufacturing costs and SpaceX corporate interests are put on the balance.

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