Author Topic: Dragon ops  (Read 11176 times)

bjbeard

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Dragon ops
« on: May 17, 2010, 05:53:07 AM »
Isn't the Dragon going up next month? BTW I do believe that the Ares I was saved as well. Has to be, how else you gonna get it up there? Delta/Atlas?

Moonwalker

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Dragon ops
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2010, 10:10:46 AM »
Isn't the Dragon going up next month? BTW I do believe that the Ares I was saved as well. Has to be, how else you gonna get it up there? Delta/Atlas?

Yes, Delta/Atlas is being discussed as far as I know.

But Ares I has not been saved although they would like to and certainly still have hope. Contracts have been pulled already. The operating costs for Ares I would be 50% higher than for the Space Shuttle whilst carrying 50% less payload, and there is also another 50 billion USD required, money that NASA does not have and certainly does not get, to make Ares I fly manned with Orion on top. Even then, if NASA would get the money, Ares I would not lift off before 2017, and I guess due to what happened during the last month the schedule likely has slipped to the end of the decade anyway. But more important, there would be no money to develope a heavy lift launcher, as there was never money for Ares V or Ares IV. If Ares I would indeed be back on the table, NASA would keep access to low earth orbit which would be great, but they would loose the ability to fly to anywhere beyond until the late 2020s due to the high costs only for Ares I.

We can be sure Congress won't pay, less than ever even more for an additional heavy lift launcher beside Ares I. NASA remains in a deadlock, and by operating Ares I it would create an even bigger one. In any case, we can expect that NASA won't be back even in low earth orbit on its own until the end of this decade. And I will be nearly 40 years old by that time :o When I was born the Apollo program already was history. When NASA might be back on the Moon or anywhere else beyond low earth orbit, I will be a pensioner. It's just so sad...

Don't understand me wrong. I like Ares I. It's a great rocket design. If it would just not be so expensive, it would be a really great thing I would love to see and to fly within AMS2017 - Ares Mission Simulator 2017 ;D
« Last Edit: May 17, 2010, 10:20:29 AM by Moonwalker »

bjbeard

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Re: Dragon ops
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2010, 10:18:24 PM »
How the hell can Ares cost MORE than the Shuttle??? The makes absolutely no sense. If that is the case, then why retire shuttle? Looks like a Democrat finally made good on Mondale's promise of '68. NASA is done. Thanks to all those who voted for Obama, this is your damn fault!

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Re: Dragon ops
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2010, 11:02:00 PM »
How the hell can Ares cost MORE than the Shuttle??? The makes absolutely no sense. If that is the case, then why retire shuttle? Looks like a Democrat finally made good on Mondale's promise of '68. NASA is done. Thanks to all those who voted for Obama, this is your damn fault!

You could be more subtle BJB  :-\

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Moonwalker

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Re: Dragon ops
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2010, 02:19:32 AM »
How the hell can Ares cost MORE than the Shuttle??? The makes absolutely no sense. If that is the case, then why retire shuttle? Looks like a Democrat finally made good on Mondale's promise of '68. NASA is done. Thanks to all those who voted for Obama, this is your damn fault!

The problem is the program structure of Constellation which causes huge development and operating costs that are beyond anything NASA can expect to get within the next years. That's not really Obamas fault. It is a management and structural issue. No matter who is in the Oval Office during such a financial crises, it is unlikely that NASA gets additional 50 billion USD for something that costs more than the Shuttle in the end and carries less. Of course Obama could have just gave it a go, but it would have caused big trouble to the goals of Constellation and many controversies after what has been pointed out by the Augustine Commission.

The Shuttles will be retired because the program has reached the end. It was never seriously expected to continue right into the first half of the 21st Century. Almost 30 years is a pretty good record for such a complex and expensive vehicle. Another reason or lets say acceleration was the Columbia disaster. The investigation concluded to look for a replacement as soon as possible once the tasks to assemble the ISS are finished. And that's what NASA exactly is going to do.

But there is still hope. Even the Shuttle was in doubt during its development. Something will happen I think. They have the assignment to build a heavy lift launcher and regarding a few sources the review processes are already underway. And I think that Orion might become the future NASA vehicle once the heavy lift launcher should be on the path. But of course that's all just guesswork for now.

For now we should enjoy the remaining two missions and of course the current one :)

schmidtrock

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Re: Dragon ops
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2010, 04:31:30 AM »
Isn't the Dragon going up next month? BTW I do believe that the Ares I was saved as well. Has to be, how else you gonna get it up there? Delta/Atlas?

Dragon is the payload (future manned) vehicle of commercial company SpaceX. It will be launched on their Falcon 9 vehicle. Different animal.

bjbeard

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Re: Dragon ops
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2010, 06:40:19 AM »
How the hell can Ares cost MORE than the Shuttle??? The makes absolutely no sense. If that is the case, then why retire shuttle? Looks like a Democrat finally made good on Mondale's promise of '68. NASA is done. Thanks to all those who voted for Obama, this is your damn fault!

The problem is the program structure of Constellation which causes huge development and operating costs that are beyond anything NASA can expect to get within the next years. That's not really Obamas fault. It is a management and structural issue. No matter who is in the Oval Office during such a financial crises, it is unlikely that NASA gets additional 50 billion USD for something that costs more than the Shuttle in the end and carries less. Of course Obama could have just gave it a go, but it would have caused big trouble to the goals of Constellation and many controversies after what has been pointed out by the Augustine Commission.

The Shuttles will be retired because the program has reached the end. It was never seriously expected to continue right into the first half of the 21st Century. Almost 30 years is a pretty good record for such a complex and expensive vehicle. Another reason or lets say acceleration was the Columbia disaster. The investigation concluded to look for a replacement as soon as possible once the tasks to assemble the ISS are finished. And that's what NASA exactly is going to do.

But there is still hope. Even the Shuttle was in doubt during its development. Something will happen I think. They have the assignment to build a heavy lift launcher and regarding a few sources the review processes are already underway. And I think that Orion might become the future NASA vehicle once the heavy lift launcher should be on the path. But of course that's all just guesswork for now.

For now we should enjoy the remaining two missions and of course the current one :)

The biggest question I want answered is why did NASA go with Lockheed/Martin, and not Boeing? All the former companies that built US spacecraft are now part of Boeing, sans Grumman (LM). This selection reminded me of the Douglas/North American debacle over Apollo.

And for the record wh have a great heavy lift ELV. It is the DELTA IV Heavy. That thing throws 50,800lbs into LEO, and that is what NASA needs right now. Christ it can throw 28,900lbs into GTO!
Isn't the Dragon going up next month? BTW I do believe that the Ares I was saved as well. Has to be, how else you gonna get it up there? Delta/Atlas?
Dragon is the payload (future manned) vehicle of commercial company SpaceX. It will be launched on their Falcon 9 vehicle. Different animal.
[Sarcasm]
Really, I didn't know that. Why thank you Captain Obvious. You must work for the BBC.
[/Sarcasm]
They were two different questions. Note the BTW?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2010, 06:43:39 AM by bjbeard »

schmidtrock

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Re: Dragon ops
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2010, 10:38:26 PM »
Wow, excuse the he** outta me!  You're quite a charming fellow now aren't you?

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Re: Dragon ops
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2010, 11:46:32 PM »
Now you'll understand that I'll have to lock this thread until spirits calm down and put things into the correct context and proportion.

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Re: Dragon ops
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2010, 09:44:37 PM »
Topic is open again. I hope I won't have to lock it again  :-X

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bjbeard

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Re: Dragon ops
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2010, 12:51:28 AM »
Well back to Dragon, there are three COTS flights on for this year, and not one has flown yet. Looks like it wont happen before June.

Moonwalker

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Re: Dragon ops
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2010, 01:42:05 AM »
Well back to Dragon, there are three COTS flights on for this year, and not one has flown yet. Looks like it wont happen before June.

That's not unusual in the space flight business. The first Shuttle launch even was 3 years late due to several issues during development. Not to mention all the delays during the program. Falcon still looks good in comparison. But of course it is not a manned system. As far as I know, the go for launch also depends on the Air Force now...


schmidtrock

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Re: Dragon ops
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2010, 02:26:09 AM »
As I understand it, the hold up is with the Air Force and sundry safety offices certifying SpaceX's launch failure/abort destruction systems. Everything I hear from SpaceX indicates they are ready. Red tape rulesas always.

Huron_Serenity

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Re: Dragon ops
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2010, 07:47:55 PM »
Well back to Dragon, there are three COTS flights on for this year, and not one has flown yet. Looks like it wont happen before June.

That's not unusual in the space flight business. The first Shuttle launch even was 3 years late due to several issues during development. Not to mention all the delays during the program. Falcon still looks good in comparison. But of course it is not a manned system. As far as I know, the go for launch also depends on the Air Force now...



Not a manned system, but it is designed to rather rapidly become one if so ordered.
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Moonwalker

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Re: Dragon ops
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2010, 01:09:19 AM »
Not a manned system, but it is designed to rather rapidly become one if so ordered.

Yes. It's their top goal for Falcon 9 and Dragon. I just mentioned that it's not a manned system for now since the delay still is not too big, but might become big for man rating the systems. Going into space manned requires a lot of manpower and experience if one like to do it regularly and safely (as safe as space flight can be of course). And SpaceX is still young. But I think what they do for now looks rather promising...

If they manage to use Falcon 9 and Dragon for manned flights, there is a chance that this might even be the end for NASA to go into space on their own systems.