Author Topic: The STS program may be extended by two more years...  (Read 53607 times)

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Re: The STS program may be extended by two more years...
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2010, 08:58:45 PM »
The Challenger and Columbia disasters exposed massive NASA management failures, a less than ideal transporation concept (crew "capsule" behind the rockets), but did not expose the Shuttle as a totally failed system. Current Shuttles are totally different from the first Columbia on ALL aspects, as their reliability, efficiency and cost/performance ratio have sky-rocketed (pun intended) by any standards. The only issue marring the STS is general fatigue which is a direct result of the loss of two Shuttle. Costs are much lower than ANY alternative today, and since Soyuz cargo capacity is not comparable to that of the Shuttle, comparing the two is irrelevant.

I suggest that the failure to pass Constellation (or alternative Moon and beyond programs) expose again a massive NASA management/marketing failure (as they agree now internally), and a suicidal political attempt by the Obama administration that might cost the US leadership in Space Exploration in the long term.

I hope that The People will prevent the move to kill any future NASA-led/initiated manned Space Exploration program and will force the Administration (and NASA) to use the huge amount of knowledge it has accumulated from the first stages of the Constellation program and adapt it to a more realistic, cost-efficient, but no less bold approach that should take NASA and its less-endowed partners to the Moon and beyond.

As a closure of the thread, I think that despite the huge amount of bandwidth used by Moonwalker, the thread is interesting and exposes positions and arguments that will go on forever. This thread is on of thousands which discuss the issue, with respectable members of the Space Exploration community supporting and rejecting Obama's move.

Ultimately, we'll see what happens regardless of what we say here. We live in interesting times, and this is not necessarily a good thing ;)

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« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 09:08:00 PM by Admin »
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Moonwalker

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Re: The STS program may be extended by two more years...
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2010, 10:17:16 PM »
The Challenger and Columbia disasters exposed massive NASA management failures, a less than ideal transporation concept (crew "capsule" behind the rockets), but did not expose the Shuttle as a totally failed system. Current Shuttles are totally different from the first Columbia on ALL aspects, as their reliability, efficiency and cost/performance ratio have sky-rocketed (pun intended) by any standards. The only issue marring the STS is general fatigue which is a direct result of the loss of two Shuttle. Costs are much lower than ANY alternative today, and since Soyuz cargo capacity is not comparable to that of the Shuttle, comparing the two is irrelevant.

Well, the requirement for the OBSS, the backflip maneuver and STS-400, shows how "reliable" the Space Shuttle is and that today it is not different in "ALL" aspects. There was updates already after Challenger. But the Space Shuttle, its original design and technology, is basically still the same beside all the tiny changes here and there that combined are called lots of changes. Especially the External Tank continues to be a risk of what had caused the loss of Columbia...

The Shuttle is that much expensive because of various reasons. First of all it carries crew and payload at the same time. And there is that costly NASA infrastructure, plus the reusability causes massive costs as well (also for the SRBs). Even without carrying a huge paylaod or a payload at all, the Shuttle still causes massive costs for one launch just to carry 7-8 astronauts into space. Most Shuttle payloads beside Hubble (just 50% mass of what the Shuttle can carry) and ISS components, were quite low in relation to its capacity. But each time you launch a Shuttle, you have that massive launch costs in any case. Another fault for that, beside the STS concept itself, is NASAs structures which is big national job keeping programs. The costs for AresI and Orion for example would have been even higher than for the Space Shuttle, just to bring twice as much astronauts to the ISS as Soyuz does, and just for the sake to pass that design and make it fly. It doesn't work that way, which is why politicians are not willing anymore to pump billions of Dollars into such programs.

If we talk about payload capacity we should also have a look to the Russian Proton rocket (up to 22 tons). Another story of success, because it is one of the most successful rockets, and the latest versions one of the most economical rockets in the world. It launched more than 350 times for now, both commercially and for the government (and we remember it was used for ISS assembly as well).

Ultimately, we'll see what happens regardless of what we say here. We live in interesting times, and this is not necessarily a good thing ;)

As an optimist, I say that it is a rather good interesting times ;D

I know you probably want to close the subject as what has been siad, has been said. However, I wonder why US/NASA and Russia haven't tried two options: the resurrection of Buran (1K destoryed, but 2K I believe is in storage) and the Kilper project. Kliper did look rather promising, especially it is resuable and appears to be a cheaper option and on similar running cost of a soyuz, just expensive to get it through development. If NASA/US throw a few bucks and development resources towards Russia as a joint project, maybe, just maybe, that could be the answer to the midterm problems.

I think that a joint project is one of the best solutions in many directions. It reduces costs and also contributes to a friendly political atmosphere, and most importantly enables things that would not be possible as a solo effort. Present example: ISS. The times of big national solo efforts are actually over. Politicians and tax payers don't want to bother with expensive shows like Apollo or Constellation while there is work to be done on earth, which is really understandable in some aspects.

The Russian and European cooperation works quite good, just like the international cooperation on ISS. And beside Kliper, I also like the "Euro-Soyuz" proposal: http://www.russianspaceweb.com/soyuz_acts.html

But I don't think that a resurrection of Buran would be a realistical scenario. It certainly would cause colossal costs. Maybe as a joint project it would be worthy, but then we would have to abandon any manned plans beyond low earth orbit. If we want to fly to the Moon and Mars in future, we need a lot of efforts that are almost impossible to do as a solo effort, especially in case something like the Shuttle or Buran is still in use. I even claim that a reasonable Mars and even lunar program is not sustainable in the long term without cooperation. Apollo was not at all sustainable in the long term, just like Constellation wouldn't have been. Even the ISS program is still a colossal program if we talk about money, but basically because of the expensive Shuttles and its required infrastructure. I don't think that reusable spacecraft like the Shuttle or Buran are the future. Reusability in space has turned out to be expensive, rather than economical.

That being said, I will now safe my bandwith a little more ;D

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Re: The STS program may be extended by two more years...
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2010, 12:06:30 AM »
The US contribution to the ISS exceeds all the others' combined. US just like the USSR/Russia could have built a station of its own, smaller, but still could have done it, and reap all the benefits of the research and experiemnts there, without any cooperation or owing anybody anything. If credit should be given, the US should reap the full credits for planning, managing and covering most of the ISS financial, operational and technological aspects. The international partners are credited for allowing for a BIGGER station. Without this contribution, nobody except for Russia and the US would have had a LEO outpost. So ISS is not really a proof of something being possible only due to the international contribution - it is merely a proof that something could be done on a bigger scale. For the international partners the choice was to contribute or have nothing. I guess they made the right choice <g>

As for the need for belly dancing and tile inspection, I don't see how that reflects on a worse reliability regarding to ... what? Is there any active-duty Shuttle-like alternative with the same capacity?  Don't compare something to something which does not exist.

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davidrobinsonjr

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Re: The STS program may be extended by two more years...
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2010, 01:30:35 AM »
Quote
There are basically two sides: people who are still afraid of Russian technology and depending on it, and those who are not afraid but rather excited by Soyuz the same way as for the Shuttle and another past manned programs. So the discussion actually is an infinite loop.

What??
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Moonwalker

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Re: The STS program may be extended by two more years...
« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2010, 02:54:38 AM »
The US contribution to the ISS exceeds all the others' combined. US just like the USSR/Russia could have built a station of its own, smaller, but still could have done it, and reap all the benefits of the research and experiemnts there, without any cooperation or owing anybody anything. If credit should be given, the US should reap the full credits for planning, managing and covering most of the ISS financial, operational and technological aspects. The international partners are credited for allowing for a BIGGER station. Without this contribution, nobody except for Russia and the US would have had a LEO outpost. So ISS is not really a proof of something being possible only due to the international contribution - it is merely a proof that something could be done on a bigger scale. For the international partners the choice was to contribute or have nothing. I guess they made the right choice <g>

Freedom (USA) and Mir 2 (Russia) would have been way smaller. But Freedom was very much in doubt since the 1980s already because of budget reasons and massive STS costs. You forgot Columbus by the way, initially planned as the first European space station. Because of budget reasons on all three sides, and due to the lucky circumstance of the German Reunification and collapse of the Sovjet Union, all three sides decided to combine all three space station proposals to one big project.

As for the need for belly dancing and tile inspection, I don't see how that reflects on a worse reliability regarding to ... what? Is there any active-duty Shuttle-like alternative with the same capacity?  Don't compare something to something which does not exist.

If you talk about payload capacity, you have to look to Proton. It can carry almost as much as the Shuttle (up to 22 tons).

Moonwalker

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Re: The STS program may be extended by two more years...
« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2010, 06:21:05 PM »
And if we just have a closer look to the histroy of Freedom, Mir 2 and Columbus, i.e. ISS:

all three proposals became more and more unlikely by the time. Mir 2 had been dramatically cut and lost capability, even more after they had to end the Buran program and take assembly over to Soyuz and Proton only. Almost the same was the case for Freedom regarding cuts: at the end it even lost most of its scientifc capabilites due to several redesigns which made the entire project questionable. The European Columbus proposal was a potential competitor even for the USA, as expected by NASA already in the mid 1980s (also remember that ESA already had designed and build the Spacelab). A US outpost in LEO was quite unlikely at the end. Freedom became a failed program. And Mir 2 also was in doubt. The preparation phase of Columbus was completed (in 1987 already), and development time was expected to last until the late 1990s. Because of the dramatical cuts and financial problems with Mir 2, Europe and Russia started to discuss about a joint project. Shortly after that, the discussions expandet to the other side of the Atlantic Ocean as well. That was in 1993. And only 5 years later the first module was in LEO, carried by the Proton rocket. That's why cooperation is that much important in times without a cold war and without the possibility of big national solo efforts.

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Re: The STS program may be extended by two more years...
« Reply #37 on: April 14, 2010, 12:13:14 PM »
I'm very curious especially about the "new" NASA architecture. At least it sounds like in Washington they have understood the NASA architecture issue. I can only hope they don't continue to keep a big national job program. If they don't reduce the number of eomployees, NASA won't go anywhere again without pumping way more budget into it as palnned for now.

I'm also still very curious about the nearby asteroids proposal. A heavy lift launcher, returning to space quicker than with Constellation, and that cheaper... sounds more political for now rather than reality.

It will be an interesting speech, and hopeflly not just one another speech regarding NASAs future...

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Re: The STS program may be extended by two more years...
« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2010, 12:30:21 PM »
"Not everything that glistens is gold" - not even a s****d plan to nowhere. Obama will soon realize that he is alone in his quest to destroy something which he doesn't understand.

Moonwalker, the reason I stopped answering your posts on the subject is because I noticed that you keep bringing in too many irrelevant and out of context claims and arguments as to why the US shouldn't have a national and bold manned Space Exploration Program. It is a waste of time arguing like this. Needless to say, I'm far from convinced - on the contrary. Since thankfully, more and more people realize today that Obama is making a costly mistake, I really hope that reason will prevail.

I expect a nice, vibrant but completely demagogical, irrelevant and empty speech (read "eulogy") about "achievements", "future", "curageous" and yes, "yes I can" (not "we"). I wonder if, like during his many election speeches, somebody will faint at a certain sign and he will be there to offer the bottle of water.

He will then board his plane and attend another burial - that of the late Polish President, may he rest in peace! Obama will be leaving a trail of graves allright. 

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Spaceguy5

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Re: The STS program may be extended by two more years...
« Reply #39 on: April 14, 2010, 12:37:58 PM »
Obama better bring some good security personnel, otherwise there might be a riot <_<

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Re: The STS program may be extended by two more years...
« Reply #40 on: April 14, 2010, 01:35:58 PM »
Moonwalker, the reason I stopped answering your posts on the subject is because I noticed that you keep bringing in too many irrelevant and out of context claims and arguments as to why the US shouldn't have a national and bold manned Space Exploration Program. It is a waste of time arguing like this.

Just like I never stick the "not invented here syndrom" to an entire nation, I also never said that the USA should not have a national and bold manned Space Exploration Program. My entire statement is, I quote it from page one: "because the USA won't ride on its own "invented here" toy for a while does not mean the end of the world". That NASAs program structure does not allow for an own system, is no argument against NASA or against a national program, it is a sad fact which is why Constellation is canceled. That Europe has no or less know how, and who contribues most budget to the ISS and so on, indeed is like you say: irrelevant and out of context ;)

NASA has a problem, and depending on Soyuz is the only chance for the USA to get their people into space. Anything else has to be decided by the government now. And Obama is not going to make the situation better for now I fear. But again, that is no argument against a national US manned Space Exploration Program. It's a sad fact.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 01:39:11 PM by Moonwalker »

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Re: The STS program may be extended by two more years...
« Reply #41 on: April 14, 2010, 03:01:05 PM »
...
NASA has a problem, and depending on Soyuz is the only chance for the USA to get their people into space...


EXACTLY - and that's EXACTLY why the US should have its OWN manned SE program and not depend on others to do it for them. And yes, Obama will make it worse! Unless this is a very smart move on his part to shake NASA out of its many inefficiencies and make it work as it should. But I'm afraid that's not the case. The cancellation of Constellation and mothballing ANY alternative, says that this is not the case.

Now to the subject of relevancy: the EU knowledge is irrelevant to the US own need to have a national manned SE program.
The Russian Soyuz is irrelevant to the same.
The fact that there are commercial companies aiming for space transportation is still, irrlelvant to the same.
The fact that fire has been invented in Africa (or so they say) is irrelevant to the same.

There are a lot of irrelevant arguments you raised, yet not one of them is valid for explaining why the US should not have its own manned, nations SE program. On the contrary - all of them point to one fact - the US MUST have its own national manned SE Program. It must not depend entirely on anybody. This does not preclude cooperation - it avoids dependency - and that's the main issue here.

And of course you did say (in so many words) that US should not have a manned national Space Exploration program - you claimed that it has to go commercial - that's not "national". You also claimed that the US CANNOT have its own national manned SE Program and that it must cooperate in order to get its astronauts in Space.

You made so many claims why US should not have a manned national SE program that it is hard to remember them all, but the main idea comes through very clearly.

Unless I grossly misunderstood you after all these posts, and in this case, I apologize ;)

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Moonwalker

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Re: The STS program may be extended by two more years...
« Reply #42 on: April 14, 2010, 05:38:15 PM »
the EU knowledge is irrelevant to the US own need to have a national manned SE program.
The Russian Soyuz is irrelevant to the same.
The fact that there are commercial companies aiming for space transportation is still, irrlelvant to the same.

You criticised that the only crew transportation option is Russian because the other space agencies and commercial entities didn't have the resources and know-how to develope another one. Now you say it's irrelevant. I have no problem that you relativise your statements. I'm just wondering.

SpaceX, talking about the commercial companies: it's significant rather than irrelevant because it is going to become an ISS supporter and beside Soyuz a potential second manned chance for the US, which is why it is hugely supported by NASA (6 billion USD).

There are a lot of irrelevant arguments you raised, yet not one of them is valid for explaining why the US should not have its own manned, nations SE program.

I did not say that the USA should not have its own manned program. I mentioned, and I do it again, that NASA can not have such a pogram at the moment, because its program structure does not allow to do this in an economical scale. This is neither an irrelevant argument, nor invalid. It is the most relevant fact within the entire debate of Americas future of manned space flight. NASAs program structure has to change if they want to get manned access less costly than by AresI/Constellation. Unless this doesn't happen, they will have to depend on commercial companies, which they already started to do. If Obamas plan and the NASA management fails again, SpaceX will be the only chance beside Soyuz in case SpaceX manages to operate the Falcon 9 properly.

That commercial is not "national", and that this obviously is an issue to some people, points clearly to the not invented here syndrom. It does not matter if astronauts ride into space on top of rockets made by NASA, SpaceX or somebody else. It will happen under equal, if not same rules. If NASA manages to get own access again: fine. Why not, if it finally works efficiently. If that's not the case, I repeat: the world is not going to end just because NASA does not launch manned rockets ;)
« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 05:40:06 PM by Moonwalker »

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Re: The STS program may be extended by two more years...
« Reply #43 on: April 14, 2010, 06:14:34 PM »
Here we go again... I'm not baiting anymore ;)

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JLM

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Re: The STS program may be extended by two more years...
« Reply #44 on: April 15, 2010, 12:15:19 AM »
Okay, private companies will always do better than government agencies, so why dosen't Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, United Technologies, SpaceX, General Dynamics, L3 Communications Holdings, Honeywell International, Parker Hannifin, Computer Sciences Corp, US branch of Thales Group, and SpaceDev all team up and buy out all of NASA, save the "space jobs" and make space flight cheaper than NASA as a government agency?