Author Topic: An opinion on a few things.  (Read 31162 times)

bjbeard

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An opinion on a few things.
« on: July 24, 2009, 09:18:42 AM »
I hear all these yapping heads on TV and Radio talking about how Orion is the replacement of the shuttle. Well it aint! Orion is the replacement for the Apollo spacecraft, not the space shuttle.

Want proof?

The shuttle is a delta-winged reusable spacecraft capable of carrying a maximum of 65,000lbs of cargo and 7 crew. Current safety constraints limit the cargo to about 55,000 lbs. It was deigned to conduct multi-role missions in low-earth orbit, primarily the construction and re-supply of the space station.

The Orion is a non-reusable conical shaped capsule. 4 crew and 500lbs of cargo. It was designed to be the vehicle to return to the moon in concert with the Artemis lander, and to serve as a crew transfer vehicle.

There is NO replacement for the shuttle. Some in NASA questioned the logic of the retirement. How can NASA repair or replace a module of the space station if needed? You cant launch them on a Delta IV or Atlas. The modules are too big for Atlas, and Delta would crush them during launch. In any case, there is no way to grapple them after the were lofted up. The RMS on the station is not designed for that type of use. SO what does NASA do? The guys in both Bush's and Obama's administration have avoided the whole topic.

The space shuttle was designed for a 50 year service life. Discovery is at the half way mark, Atlantis is one year behind, and Endeavor is only 18! With the confirmation of Ex-Shuttle astronaut Charlie Bolden to be the new NASA administrator, he has engaged in a full assault for the cancellation of the retirement plans. And it just might happen.

Project Constellation is on schedule for the Ares-1X test light, but everything else is behind schedule. There is still no clear consensus on what form the heavy lift booster will take, either the Ares-IV or -V. And the first test flight is already scheduled for 2015. Orion is still not yet in existence as a whole, and the TLI package and lander only exist in computers and desk models.

Prior to his departure former Administrator Dr. Griffin stated in a now infamous leaked e-mail that the Bush administration had made no viable plan for U.S. crews to participate in the International Space Station beyond 2011, and that OMB and OSTP are actually seeking shutting it down, and apparently along with it the whole of NASA! Russian policies toward the US are now causing US astronauts to be bumped from Soyuz missions. With the deterioration of relations between Russia and the US it appears that, politically speaking, US astronauts will no longer be allowed to fly in Russian vehicles in the near future.

One of the biggest arguments for the STS shutdown was the designs age, not the vehicle. Meanwhile these same nimrods were saying we could use the Russian spacecraft, apparently not knowing the Soyuz design predates the shuttle by a decade!!! Where is the Logic in that?

Here is basic reasoning for all this idiocy. House members serve 2 year terms, Senators and Presidents 4 years. These people have long term goals of 2-10 years at most! Space exploration is on geologic time frame in relation to the politicians and business guys. NASA has SHORT-TERM goals that are 25 years long! Long term? Try 50-100 years. Here is an example.

In 1991 Bush Sr., asked NASA for a comprehensive plan for space exploration through 2050 that would include the Moon and Mars manned flights. He understood that space related research required long term investments of both time and money. So THREE MONTHS(!) later NASA presented the plan. The Executive Summary, that came to be called "The 90 Day Study" in the media, laid out a plan that had a much larger station that was 90% US made, Lunar and Martian exploration vehicles that would be totally built at that station and a replacement for the shuttle to begin flying in 2028, 4 years prior to the Columbia's original retirement date, and 12 years before Endeavor last flight. This plan had us back on the moon in 2005-2009 and on Mars by 2025-2030. The total projected cost for this plan was $450 billion, with disbursements over the next 50 years. This worked out to $9 billion a year average, less than 1% of the US total budget per year.

All the US Congress saw was the total price, and they didn't do the math. So after the entire legislative branch collectively had kittens, the plan was killed with extreme prejudice. There was a huge fight about the plan again in 1993 and 1995. Then Congress did the most i***tic thing they could have done. They passed the Lunar part of the plan, and gave it the full $450 Billion... :o

NASA brass just scratched their heads and the engineers just shook their heads...

Congress just didn't get it.

So now we are in a position that may just see the US drop out of space exploration...

Eisenhower and Kennedy are spinning in their graves. So are 17 other folks that gave their lives for the US Space program.

If we stop, those people died for nothing! If we stop, all that money spent will truly have been wasted.

Next thing we know, Congress will pass the space exploration equivalent of the Edsel!
 >:(

bjbeard

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Re: An opinion on a few things.
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2009, 09:47:19 AM »
Why did "i d i o t i c" get ***

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Re: An opinion on a few things.
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2009, 01:00:02 PM »
Why did "i d i o t i c" get ***

Because some words are no-no and are filtered by the forum engine.

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schmidtrock

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Re: An opinion on a few things.
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2009, 06:07:09 PM »
Good write up bjbeard and I agree with everything you have posted here.
I'll refrain from commenting further though, as I'm at a complete disgust level with Congress and this would not be the appropriate venue.

Pocci

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Re: An opinion on a few things.
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2009, 08:38:41 PM »
The Orion is a non-reusable conical shaped capsule. 4 crew and 500lbs of cargo. It was designed to be the vehicle to return to the moon in concert with the Artemis lander, and to serve as a crew transfer vehicle.

As far as I know is the Orion capsule planned to be reusable as well as the SRB's (Ares-I first stage and Ares-V booster)  (but I do not know how often).

Crew of 4 is for lunar missions. ISS missions will have a crew of 6.

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sgi

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Re: An opinion on a few things.
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2009, 12:15:26 AM »
This  is a matter of money only, as ever. But I'm hoping in Mr. President far-sightedness, and perhaps the new NASA Administrator is a first and strong signal.

bjbeard

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Re: An opinion on a few things.
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2009, 03:56:39 AM »
Last I read(either AWST or spaceflight.com), Lockheed was not sure they could make the Orion re-usable. But that was a while ago. I remember a article in one of the flying publications that the House Committee on Science and Technology was not very happy with Lockheed.

bjbeard

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Re: An opinion on a few things.
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2009, 03:59:26 AM »
I stand corrected, Orion is re-usable. It is limited to 5 flights due to the stresses placed on it during re-entry, though this is only a limitation if the vehicle has been used on a lunar mission.

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RMS Driver

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Re: An opinion on a few things.
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2009, 11:52:55 AM »
Just curious - one of the options NASA is considering is extending the Shuttle operations to 2012. BUt what would they do with the extra missions? As far as I know, the only ISS module that is basically flight ready is the AMS, which is already manifested for STS-134. Would these additional missions be logistics missions?
Regards,
Chris

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Re: An opinion on a few things.
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2009, 04:58:58 PM »
Just curious - one of the options NASA is considering is extending the Shuttle operations to 2012. BUt what would they do with the extra missions? As far as I know, the only ISS module that is basically flight ready is the AMS, which is already manifested for STS-134. Would these additional missions be logistics missions?

IMO those would also be "political" missions - like in "we're still here and Soyuz is not the only option until Constellation is fully operational".

What worries me however is that there are only 3 Shuttles left and the strain put on them during the short turnaround can be too much. IMHO NASA should not exceed 2 STS missions per year until 2015, or until Constellation is a "go".

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bradleyjs

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Re: An opinion on a few things.
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2009, 11:46:54 PM »
I just read the other day that the Shuttle's were designed for a 50 year life-span and that sounds a bit long to me; especially the stress involved... However, they have, in the past, been refurbished and upgraded individually; so it could be possible. But, I think that USA (United Space Alliance) doesn't have the tooling to support that anymore...I'm assuming. When I was with Rockwell/USA, the creator, the tooling and other OEM's were being phased out in the mid-90's due to cost.

But, then again, the B-52 (the one's that are still flying) have been flying for more than 40+ years. So, I say NASA flys them as long as possible until a "true" replacement is created; or otherwise... Again, if there are no "real" missions other than Logistics then it would be hard to justify, "Politically" as /Admin put it.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2009, 11:56:30 PM by bradleyjs »

JLM

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Re: An opinion on a few things.
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2009, 07:32:01 PM »
They should have had a plan to upgrade each Shuttle in the future with new features like newer engines (those old engines cost to much to maintain), more reliable computers (hopefully use less), and for god sakes do something about that foam on the tank (someone should have suggested that the shuttle's underside should fit and actually touch the underside of the Shuttle. And build another thermal protection system to withstand impact. And replace some parts of the shuttle with lighter materials like carbon fiber, (on the inside of course not the outside.)


I know sometimes I want to go up and tell congress Ni!



uri_ba

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Re: An opinion on a few things.
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2009, 09:10:27 PM »
they had a plan to replace all the GPCs - it was canceled after Colombia. when it was clear that the shuttle will be used only to fulfill US commitment to the ISS.
SSMEs are one amazing piece of machinery. I've heard an MIT lecture on it few days ago. apparently each of them costs more the 60M$ to build. and they are produced at a rate of 3/4 an engine a year (or at lease that was on 2004). all shuttle R&D is irrelevant now. it was before colombia.

few launches before STS-107, a big chunk of foam broke off and DENTED one of the SRB skirts. nobody even though what would happen it it would have been hitting the shuttle. I guess if someone had been noticing it - the fleet would have been grounded for a few months till they figure it out and full flight schedule would have been resumed. (and Colombia would have been bringing HST home)
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JLM

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Re: An opinion on a few things.
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2009, 01:05:55 AM »
Hopefully if this Constellation program is supposed to be "cheap" as they say, Uncle Sam better not be asking for more money, or else I will be upset. >:(



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Re: An opinion on a few things.
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2009, 02:02:15 AM »
I'm too holding back my opinions on Orion/Constellation/Ares, as they're slight learning to the letters W T F N A S A.

They didn't 'need' to investigate a new design, they already had them, the X-38 & X-37. And these programs were going to be viable low cost programs, with off the shelf technologies. Okay, the airframes will need to be modified, which would cost a bit more, but I bet that launching them might cost the same as Ares based system would work.

I've heard about the 5 times 'reusability clause', and that's 'if' the performance of the craft operates in 'Ideal' conditions, not real conditions. At best, the internal hardware will be reused, but then are the costs moving the parts from one craft to another... sound familar?

Folks, I think Uncle Sam is going to push space on to private companies within the next 25-50 years and Astros will be hitching a ride with McBurgerSpace.com, whilst NASA retires in to the 'Labs & Listening Dishes'
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